80 / 96
Sep 2024

Sorry, I am just confused

Why are you making it up like artists are a separate class that instantly gain privileges by birthright to be able to do art and snobbishly look down on the rest of population, instead of regular joe and janes who are just simply capable of making art as a hobby or career?
I am sure there are privileged artists that are out of touch with the general populace; however, let us not forget that artists from disadvantaged backgrounds do exist. Of course, if you already come from disadvantages, working a shit job which many look down on, and now some greedy privileged bastards think you deserve nothing in the guise of 'making what you do accessible for everyone,' you would be livid.

Also, skill to make art is something you can learn and develop, not something you are born with. It is all unlike how multimillionaire inherit their wealth and status from their parents. Some people may have stronger aptitude for it, sure, but you have to work on it.

I understand in your example that is not nice to gang up on a child who do not know better, I am very sorry to hear that. I recognise that some artists themselves can have problems with their attitude, professionalism, and how they come across (to the point I muttered "This is why they want to replace you with AI"). It is perhaps have something to do with that being an artist is a cutthroat, and sometimes very connection-based job. Still, while artists themselves have to better themselves in many regards (and actually making art); I do not think stealing and making mockery of their work (while supporting the greedy people behind) will "show them."

Again, I personally think genAI have a potential to help, but definitely not with the way it is now. Many don't even have the right mindset for it. I don't think stuffs being used to "replace" anyone in mind will do good, because anyone except those in control of that stuff can be replaced.

@tacticalglasses, I understand where you are going with this but I find it very misguided. Art is a skill. It takes time. Tracing over 3D models does not. Dropping in 3D backgrounds does not. Here is an example I always use. When I see a painting that I find impressive, I instantly find it less impressive if it's digital. You can literally "control Z" yourself to a masterpiece. Oil on canvas you cannot. So one is more impressive than the other. Yes you can feel all you want about how to be nice about it, but one takes more skill. What I do agree with you is the art world is full of people that are pretentious. But I find these people are usually into the scene of art, not the skill. The biggest critics of art can't draw a stick figure but still want to be in the scene. These people rightly should be ignored.

And AI still has a massive problem for commercial work. Repeatability and client tastes. If the client loves everything about the picture, but needs it altered in some way, you are basically out of luck. Until they can figure that out, which they will one day, good artist won't have to worry about AI.



I wholeheartedly agree.


Am not saying that handmade, real crafted artworks should go away or not be supported. Never said that. Far from it. Some of my most used items and prominent decor are handcrafted customs from amazing artisans in Etsy or locals. The best artists will never have problems getting jobs. It's the assistants, the inkers/ the effect makers/ background specialists are the ones having the most trouble.





Am just saying, there's a part of Art… before all of this tribalization; that just meant freedom of expression for the common man. And that a lot of artists seem to forget that, and it's that provaction against the public who would use tools and methods they deem inferior; causing that disconnect and lack of support. When it was never meant as a show of skill for regular people -- they just wanted to share.





Let's just agree to disagree on a couple of things:

One. In my and artists friend's experiences; the biggest critics are other artists themselves. You yourself find that traditional media is more impressive than what digital artists and painters do, right? Even when a lot of them are classically trained and have more than paid their dues in decades of turpentine smell and barely-hanging on easels.

Two. Very curated (and only 1 source artist) LoRAs don't have that consistency and repeatability issues anymore. You can now draw in changes and modifications that happen almost instantaneously now. All done offline, in a local machine. They even save separate components to individual layers now. (lineart/ blocking/ color/ shading/ clothing/ foreground/ background) so modifications are easier than ever. You don't have to believe me, and the people who use them to make their workflow much faster now doesn't need others to believe them either.

I just want to correct one thing. The artwork is more impressive, not the artist. There are lots of the best 3D animators that do fantastic 2D animation. I find their 2D stuff more impressive as 3D is far easier to do. It's the art not the person doing it.

Okay, but...you do realize you're not talking to your friends right now, right?? You're talking to people who don't know you, and you're taking on this smarmy attitude with the inherent assumption that we won't listen, won't care, and have already decided to attack you (which isn't happening, as far as I can tell).

That's not conducive to your argument...if you're gonna act like that, why talk to strangers at all?? You know it makes more sense to simply not engage with an issue on a public forum if you feel like hostility is that inevitable...not everything has to be a public crusade if you can't handle it. And I think talking down to people like this is a sign that you can't handle it...you don't sound trustworthy, you sound like you're roleplaying a cyberpunk villain...

I really don't care if it "will work", my point is that it's the right thing to do. Attacking artists in general (who are largely an overworked, underpaid, disrespected population; one of the few who are encouraged by their own industry to perform slave labor at every level) is not the right thing to do.

Flaming randos who post AI (even AI that is inherently harmful) isn't the right thing to do either-- 9 times out of 10 they just see 'funny picture', they don't know what's wrong with the software they're using. But, the more trustworthy sources they hear that bother to educate them instead of attacking, the more they'll be able to learn and continue the cycle, instead of simply choosing a side (like you've clearly done...I'm sorry, but you can't claim neutrality while blaming people who are being victimized for their own suffering, and choosing to simply ignore how widespread that suffering is).

I'mma let you in on a secret: you don't have to be an "artiste" to jump on a bandwagon and tear people down on the internet. I'd bet any amount of money that most of the people you see participating in that aren't even professionals. But it's professionals whose livelihoods are actually at risk-- you're basically telling freelancers who can't make a living anymore that their concerns don't matter and don't deserve consideration, because of 14-year-old Twitter warriors they can't control.

Bullying has always been a problem. Mass art theft on this scale is totally new, and causing far more damage to people who don't even know what AI art is and don't get the option to just exit the discussion. Is it really that hard to believe that some people would rather focus on the latter??

Would you mind listing some examples of what you're talking about? Y'know, proof that I could actually look into...?

I'd love to get on board with what you're saying, and incorporate it into my arguments in the future...but you're not explaining yourself. You're just making empty claims.

If you really believe that easy, ethical alternatives to OpenAI and all its data-harvesting cousins exist, why aren't you telling people what they are? Why are you not spending your energy on advertising them, rather than ranting about "artistes" who don't understand you?

I advertise my free art software (https://getpaint.net/2) any chance I get, as well as any other software I believe will help people when relevant discussions come up. Why are you hiding yours?? Again, it doesn't sound trustworthy. =/


I really don't know to be perfectly honest with you.



Maybe it's because of boredom that I had some more free time (I should be writing) this week. Maybe it's a bubbling frustration that's been brewing for a while that finally snapped. Seeing friends get attacked every single time by zealots. I understand their plight, I've had friends that lost jobs too, but that doesn't make them any right either.

Truth is, I very well knew from the start that nothing in this cycle will change:
Companies will still keep screwing over artists. Some artists will still act like privileged gatekeepers against the public, and most of the public will still be apathetic to their plight.

Just thought that maybe, just maybe, someone among the three would have not been so stubborn.
As this IS a forum for creatives, the message was targeted there.

As a side note; was quite vocal for artists in the public space, sharing how they can support their locals and Etsy craftsmen like I did. Telling them that they should share to their artist friends preventive measures like Glaze. Just saying that only a vocal minority was openly hostile at people that just wanted to express and share… But I won't lie to you, from their stories over there, it's not looking good, and some artists certainly doesn't make it easy to defend them.



Maybe, just maybe; my old, crusty, uncouth words will just make one artist think twice before laying on the heat on some random Joe or Jane. And that they shouldn't start the conversation with ridicule or hostility. Who knows, they might even turn that one random stranger into a supporter. Maybe, just maybe, one of them actually looks up Glaze on how to protect their works.


Or maybe I'm just a sentient chatbot designed to cause havoc.




And no, I will not be sharing their portfolios or sites. Won't be leading pitchforks to their doorstep just for more harassment, cancellations and doxxing. I've seen what highly opinionated beliefs can do and will do, was surprised at how many they were in the artist space. Also don't care anymore if anyone believes us either. From what I saw with a lot of the replies from both creative and general public forums, none of them is going to budge. The will to stand up for artists that comes off as elitist to the public has waned.

Already given enough crumbs, up to people to look them up. Inquire about personal-trained LoRAs and the open-source projects that use them. Github and Gitlab is crawling with them. You can find proper documentation there. I even posted earlier for people to look up Glaze Cloaking to protect their digital art. Anyone can google that a lot of the early diffusion models are already open-source. It's not one singular, monolithic 'program'. Lots of terminal stuff. Their code is already out in the open, free to check, modify and use for your own benefit. No company has control over it. And people have already made numerous forks and modifications around them already.

@tacticalglasses
I don't really see much hostility or ridicule in this forum here. If you speak so much of understanding this whole ordeal with generative AI, then you must have an understanding of the frustration, disappointment, anger, and sadness that creatives are feeling at this time. It doesn't come off like you do, but that may just be my perception of how you are writing. There are lots of emotions in this forum on this specific topic matter. I think that is quite apparent. I think that tends to put everyone on edge and makes this topic one of high tension with every response made.

Ehhh. The idea that people should respond with utmost professionality (to the point of apathy) to the plight of themselves and others for the sake of civility is incredibly... delusional. (Sorry, can't really think of a better word to put there. I know that comes off as very harsh.)
Thinking that we shouldn't unify, discuss, and execute an action because you feel that "it's not going to work" and "it's always been this way, so just deal with it" ...it's not a great mindset to share. But I understand where that mindset comes from, as I've had it before with many things in life.

Listen. Getting mad works. It pushes progress. It gets things done.
People here in this forum are artists. When the discussion is about how they feel about the exploitation of them and their work--they're gonna be mad about it and express it with frustration, contempt, and even some more cynical viewpoints. They're exhausted. And when someone comes in and says, "Why can't you just be like me and see it my way instead?" It feels like you are disregarding the whole problem. Even if you aren't, it comes off that way. Thus garners aggravated responses like above. (I'm not saying it's wrong to come in and try to pose a solution, but this is a raw topic. And I think how you've written some things gets across an oppositional attitude.)

Been seeing a lot of this from you in this topic so far:
"Nobody knows what they're talking about."
"People are apathetic to you creatives because you're all the ones who are the pretentious jerks."
"People on the internet are really mean, and some of them are artists."
Those things stick out to me. Kind of put a bad taste in my mouth, and doesn't convince me that you care about the plight of others--in fact, it comes off as though you really don't like artists at all. But that may not be the case.

"Artists should use things like Glaze and other software to protect themselves. Other things aren't going to change for them."
Ehhhh. Again, we're trying to push for progress, not settle for a bandage solution so that the system can keep crushing people further into the dirt. Nonetheless, I think Glaze and the like is a great thing to have right now! (I'm on Cara for that very reason. It's the only safe places to share art and portfolio works atm.)

There is a well known socio-economic and cultural stigma surrounding art and the art community. It's not because "it's the artists who are the big meanies." It's because of a very long history of the arts, how artists have been and are treated, and how art is perceived in an industrialized society that favors fast cash and sees monetary gain as the only success in life. By the principles of capitalism, art should not be worth anything nor gain any capital because of its very nature.

The term is starving artist. Society looks down upon art. Especially because it has been, for a while now, associated with the "non-functioning parts of society" like hippies, sex workers, alt-leftists, anti-fascists, feminists, the LGBTQ+ community, marginalized peoples, etc. (The why's of this? Art is an entirely accessible outlet that gives power and voice to those with a lack of it. Yes, it is a skill set that must be learned, practiced, and applied... but anyone is welcome to be a part of it, whether it's a hobby, career, lifelong passion, or just a moment in time when you doodled on a notepad to make yourself laugh.)

Starving artist has been a term weaponized to deter people from choosing art as their course of action to take as a lifestyle/career. (Art forms bonds between marginalized groups. A cause for unification, which is a big no-no. lol)
Because of technological advancements and the booming industry of video games, art has been an avenue for people to hone a skill set they are passionate about and in turn receive a salary. That was possible for not even a few years before it became astoundingly exploited by the non-artists of the industries. Because people started seeing a rise in art being taken seriously. Universities were beginning to have game art as a degree you could have--and degrees used to be worth something around that time. It definitely has changed.

Lmaaaao what the heck is an "elitist artist?" That's an oxymoron if ever I heard one. Looks like yet another term to push artists down even further. Awesome. (Maybe don't use that in a forum dedicated to artists, and I think you'll get more positive responses.)

The industrialization of art and post-capitalistic (and leaning fascist) systems have caused this skewed perception of what is "real art/good art" and that there even is a concept of that in the aspect of money-making, and puts this stigma of precociousness onto the art community. Not artists themselves. I'm sorry if you've run into a lot of buttheads.
Lemme tell ya, the vast majority of people in this world are kind, want to make progress, and will hear you out. If you've been getting a lot of stink from people, then maybe you gotta take off your shoes and see if you stepped in crap at some point. I've applied that to myself in the past, and it has helped me out quite a bit to listen to others more.

The BIGGEST problem here right now in this forum is that we are all typing and reading words. Not speaking. Not listening. What transpires from this is miscommunication and misunderstandings, which harbors a lot of emotions and lack of perception. That is why the internet is not a great way to have productive discussions. Even having the idea that a conversation "should be productive" is flawed. I'm typing right now with a lot of emotion, expressing how I feel. That's how communication works, even if it doesn't push the conversation anywhere. Some people see this forum as sitting on a pillow in a room chatting, and others think it is a debate podium.
I may not come across as calm through my typed words, it may come off as hostile or something. From what I've read in this forum so far, the vast majority of us are on the same side of the discussion--just maybe we're in different quadrants, or have different ideas of solutions and what should be done. I think that's okay... but we're all here sharing those different ideas/solutions, and I think that's causing a LOT of emotional strain.

Seriously, dude. I know you're trying to be helpful. And a lot of what you said IS GREAT info to share.
But yeah, it's getting heated in here! I hope my wall of text doesn't come across as an attack. This topic is going far from the starting point, so this was my attempt to reel it back in. Idk if I did a good job though. lol



None taken, from anyone here. It's all good. Sometimes heated discussions push things forward.

I'm sorry for sounding like singling out specific persons here. I apologize. Could have phrased things a lot better, and with less 'charged' terms. I stand by the contents of what I said, though. They're just ramblings of an old man into the void, or the 'cloud' for this matter. With the acceptance and disappointment that nothing changes based on the replies I've seen from both sides.




Am not usually like this, I swear. Hahaha. Am more the type that would rather ask out people for drinks to iron things out. Call it 'ungraceful crusty aging' when something snaps once or a twice a year.

I think AI won't help artists at all, and just will make easier for big companies to steal the work of others.

It also will be used to spread misinformation and to create a lot of fake news, as it is shown in this article:

bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-684712531

I agree with point 2 and 3 that @Amalockh1
about what they wrote about big companies and the fake news.

There is another big problem that artists / illustrators / writers / games programmers etc
will be facing.

There will be no more clients

Hey. It's all good, man! Ahaha, I prefer the asking out part too--waaay more personable, and it's easier to understand where the other is coming from regardless of what phrasing we use. I really do get where you're coming from.
Thank you for your honesty on this topic with everything you had to say and share. :beers:

I think AI would be awesome for 3d artists if it was to speed up rendering time and by generating particals - clouds - rain - etc anything that would strain the computers core to render. Hair and matching lighting with live action would also be useful. AI can be useful for artists if is it's for personal inspiration, unusual concepts, or even custom references. I do agree using it for posting and claiming it's "your art" is wrong. Best bet-- don't post it! But let's get this straight for all you who follow the band wagon and don't think for yourself. ANYTHING that is put out to the public for free WILL be abused! It is ignorant to think otherwise... AI has been a part of our lives for years now even in small ways - such as; facial recognition, spell checking, web filtering, web searching algorithms and so on... Either you use it to your advantage or not. Tablets and drawing digitally was rejected by artist including myself-- now, it is necessary just to post things online and be competitive in this age. Don't like, it don't use it, if your thinking of using it, I suggest creating your own models and Loras that does not infringe on copyrights like the those free ones online that do steal. Just be smart about it.



You're right, maybe it would have been better to tell a backstory of where it came from:




Let's just hide a group of friends' names into A,B, and C. They've been friends since ever coming into the same company ages ago. Two of them came from the same art college. Now, they're a small support unit for the in-house creatives. Mostly tasked with rapid internal materials: storyboards, mockups, peg/inspiration boards, preliminary idea images, billboards, posters, you name it. These are the types of outputs only the corporate sees for planning, and they really didn't care what shortcuts you took as long as it was 'good enough' and it was 'the fastest'. Have you ever worked at a place where they'll give you a task, then you ask them: when do you need this? And the answer was '15 minutes ago'. To be completely fair, the pay was good.

Not everyone can be the 'star'. Same with that superior artist that's tasked with the final output. For every star, there used to be several assistants under them.



Before automated plugins came to photoshop like the patch tool, or refine edges to easily separate out people from the background in photographs, they were the ones that did it 'manually'. When more and more of these features came to PS; like generative fill, naturally they were taking on less and less job orders.

A was much more skilled than B and C when it came to storyboarding. You could even say he sacrifices speed to be a lot more detailed than what corporate required. When the friends heard that they might be some 'restructuring' on the team, B and C often tried to persuade A to adopt a more less-detailed style and try to use some more automation techniques. A's work was better, no doubt, but he was also a lot slower than the other two.

B was blazing fast with 3d models. He had organized folders of background assets and would pose 3d models very dynamically that we started to call him 'puppet master'. C was admittedly not that bright, but he learned just enough how to train his own LoRA and use his years of saved materials to automate as well.

It wasn't long after that A was let go.





On an actual bright side, last time we visited A , he seems to be much more happy now going back to the pure analog, traditional, paint-on-canvas lifestyle. Sure his paycheck wasn't regular anymore, but we don't think he'll swap that now for his wooden palette and 'happy little trees' like some afro-haired guy. And being notoriously thrifty, he already saved up enough.