When are Mary Sues and Gary Stues Appropriate

[Aleksei]

Only in this situation.

[IndigoShirtProd]

Well, the issue with the Mary isn't specifically that they're perfect, but that the story revolves around them and bends to suit their wants without much conflict. Everything they do is good and perfect regardless of what it is. It's not particularly interesting to watch a character breeze through the plot without much struggle or growth. People like to see growth and development in characters. Without that, it's very hard to side with a character. Not impossible.

I think if you're going to have a "Mary-sue" as a main character, everything else around them better be interesting.

And what do you no child wants to follow someone with flaws. I loved Spiderman as kid, and he's not a perfect character.

[Lev404]

May I ask what are Mary sues?

[Chocolate]

Don’t used too many overpowered characters in your series, look at Dragonball for example. The show became stale to me when there’s too many characters that are borderline god-like. It makes the characters less human. Idk it’s up to you; but just don’t try to make everyone powerful. Use a couple as bad guys and the hero must overcome them!

[IndigoShirtProd]

The term usually applies to female characters that are perfect, have no flaws ot weaknesses, and are highly regarded by other characters in the story. Briefly, a character that has the plot bend to their will for the sake of their success.

It's a bit of a pejorative and a misnomer of term. It's directed at female characters mostly even when they're are male characters that have the same qualities and are not called out for them.

[darthmongoose]

The characteristics that make a character a Sue are less about how powerful the character is, and more about how everything they do either has a positive outcome for them (whether or not it should) or is framed positively by the narrative.

A Sue doesn't have to be powerful, rich or have superhuman abilities, it's just everything they do will turn out to be exactly the right thing to do at that moment, and no matter how they interact with other characters or how they look, all other characters will either like, respect and not mess with them and also find them attractive.

So I'd say there's plenty of room for very powerful characters, or characters who are talented or rich, but the problem to avoid is a character who always gets the last word in every argument, always has the moral high ground, always gets one over on the bullies or people who disagree with them, never gets outsmarted, is allowed to break all rules of dress code or behaviour for the place they live/study/work to with no repurcussions and who everyone in the story is in love with. It can 100% happen with a character who has no superpowers and who is meant to be "average in school", "not good looking" and who "has no special talents".

[LunarScyphozoa]

The thing about a Mary Sue is that it isn’t a character with no flaws, it’s the only real character in a story. So they are never appropriate. flawless characters, however, are useful in some situations.

[redfish]

sometimes, people just like a power fantasy of seeing a mary sue/gary stu rocking out there in the world and that's okay.It's not really my style but I get what people enjoy it.

The only time I personally enjoyed a mary sue/gary stu is in comedies or parodies where the author is very self aware they've made an absolutely Perfect character and the consequences of it to the people around them.

[nathanKmcwilliams]

Pretty much what @redfish said. It really depends on personal preference.
There's a reason a lot of mainstream books with Mary Sues that do well... people like to get lost in a story and not have to worry about consequences.

Critics like to roast this stuff...but honestly I really don't have a problem with it. Even if I don't read those kinds of story, millions of people do so...is it actually such a horrible thing?

[powerplantanimations]

I usually throw this around on the internet because it's true, but it depends on the story. Nevertheless, there's nothing wrong with Mary Sues or Gary Stus. I've read tons of comic books from back in the Golden/Silver Age and they're full of both, but what makes these books so interesting are the conflicts. It comes down to the clever problem solving. Challengers of the Unknown is one of my favorite examples. They're four dudes who're completely perfect in their own occupations, yet it's their solutions that bring me back.

Same with Green Lantern (Hal Jordan). Dude was a total Gary Stu, but the way he uses his ring creates opportunities for creative problem solving. I could go on, but yeh.

Also small correction, but saints are flawed af. While they're supposed to be examples of good humans, they're also supposed to be examples of.... well.... humans lmao. For example one scientist saint from the 50's having a huge temper and despising St. Augustine's work, yelling at people who compare him to him out of pure spite. Or Joan also having a huge temper. Or this one saint who was a drunk hedonistic priest.

[fleurravenbooks]

I wouldn't say that god/goddess character is Mary/Gary Sue, it isn't about being perfect ,it's about whole story bending it's own rules for said character, i think only good reason to have Mary/Gary Sue is if it's parody of trope.

Also, a lot of legends actually have bad traits (i believe so readers can be closer to character), that doesn't make them bad people, but they tend to have traits that wouldn't be considered good

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Hot take: I don't know if Mary Sues/Gary Stu's are EVER really 'appropriate'. Like, there isn't an instance where you would write one and it would make for a better story than if they were a normal character.

Like other people have said, being a Mary Sue isn't just about being perfect-- in fact, I'd say there's a whole subgenre of Mary Sues who are specifically meant to be imperfect self-inserts for the authors who write them.
The real mark of a Mary Sue is how the story they live in serves them, rather than serving itself.

Conflict is not a vehicle for delivering a message or developing the characters involved...it's usually just a vehicle for giving the Mary Sue an aesthetically sad or dramatic moment.
Antagonists are not their own characters with their own motives for a reader to think about...they are usually just comparatively 'bad' people to make the Mary Sue look good, or agents to make her suffer so that we'll root for her.

And so on and so forth...it gets to the point where the things that make a story interesting-- struggle, the potential for growth and change, conflicting viewpoints, conflicting motivations and goals-- all ring hollow (if they're even allowed to be present), because if they ever gain enough depth to make it look like someone else could be more right or more deserving than the Mary Sue, they have to be cut short.

Who really wants to read a story like that? ^^; I guess it could still be entertaining, but having a main character who isn't put on a pedestal by the plot itself could easily take it from 'tolerable' to 'good', or from 'good' to 'great'. Which is my whole point.

[BreakingChalk]

I think these almighty garymary thing works better in power fantasies when what they solve is shown first as the real deal.

Like Superman.
Saving a plane from crashing isn't what makes him great, but how it's shown that lives are at stake, that the passengers are afraid and powerless, even when they try to do what little can to stay safe:
pilots trying to keep control of the plane, a person praying, another with their head between their knees in hopes that magically will survive, and then

BOOM!
Superman appears!

Tries to reach the plane first, struggles a little, we see the struggle though, his face shows concern, but he gets hold of the plane, but wait! It is still falling!
And Superman pushes forward, stronger every second, but he screams, he's fully concentrated on not letting that plane fall

But right on the last second, before hitting the ground, Superman stops the plane!
Everyone get out and Superman is smiling, like it was nothing.

Now I want to be like Superman!
No matter how hard and impossible the problem, keep on moving, give it all, and still look fresh and happy afterwards!
And that is because we felt the problem, what was at stake.

[Pony_wearing_a_hat]

Character foils? like if the main character is at a low point, has bed self esteem or is just just willing to acknowledge of their imperfections having them compare themselves to a character like that can be comedic and even some good pathos if you execute it well. The fact that M/Gary has no visible flaws can also help with a plot line about embracing imperfections.

[kitschensyngk]

Flawless characters are boring. They don't evolve, they don't develop, and they don't improve.

What good is reading about a hero's journey if your hero's reached their destination before they've even started out?

[Zhengo]

Mary Sue/Gary Stu type characters usually come with a set of expectations, mainly that you're probably not going to get interesting character development or internal or interpersonal conflicts, since the story will never frame them as wrong.

However, a Mary Sue isn't always a boring or unlikable character. It really depends on the personality they're written with and if their actions are fairly milquetoast that it doesn't break the suspension of disbelief that they'll never be in the wrong. I feel like Sue characters usually come unintentionally since there's a plethora of writers who want people to like their characters so try to have them come off as likable and cool, that would usually mean that their flaws will never be highlighted in a negative light and probably very little character development would occur.

But like I said, if the characters have a fun personality and don't do questionable actions that the narrative would let them get away with, chances are readers probably won't even pick up those characters are Mary Sue until they read into it more. In that sense, I feel like Mary Sues will never improve a story (unless maybe it's satirical), but it won't always make a story bad either. It will only make the story bad when the character itself by all means should not be treated as nicely by the narrative as it should.

[NickRowler]

There is a trope which I don't know if it has an official name but I call it the Strawberry Shortcake.

So the Strawberry Shortcake is a story where one character is a Mary Sue (sometimes the MC but not always) and all the other characters are extremely flawed. A lot of conflict of the story involve the flawed characters and when things get really bad, they need help from the Mary Sue to give advice or fix things. The Mary Sue ends up being an authority figure or sometimes a parent.

This type of character dynamic is super common with shows targeted at young girls. And the reason why I call it Strawberry Shortcake is because that is how all the characters act in Berry Bitty Adventures.

I feel like this can sometimes work as an appropriate way to use a Mary Sue mostly because the story is focused on the flaws of the other characters.

[TAMAnnoying]

So I’ve been wanting to talk about this for a while due to reading terry Pratchett for the first time last year.

Carrot is a Mary Sue.

Not only that he’s a very well written Mary Sue because that’s the entire point of his character and his arcs.

Similar to how OPM is a Mary Sue and the entire show delves into the ideology of being the best while dealing with real life issues such as depression and a very real aspect of “we’re do I go next?” When you’ve made it to the top. OPM for all of its goofy shit really wants to a character study of the idea of a Mary Sue as a person.

This feels very much the same for Carrot but a different take where we’re defying destiny to an extent- carrot is totally def 100% supposed to be the story book perfection of a king who will bring in some kind of golden age because he’s such a good boy. Problem is he don’t want that shit, thinks everything is fine as it is, and just wants to be a normal police officer. The world still somewhat bends around him as everyone >believes< he’s the king (and belief is a powerful force in these stories) but he dose his best to just be normal and let Vimes do the main character thing.

Mary Sues do not HAVE to be poorly written characters just like Fanfics don’t HAVE to be poorly written wish fulfillment- sure they usually are but not always and sometimes they can be better then the original/ incredibly nuanced and beloved characters.

As most of my advice goes- you just have to be aware of what your doing and make sure your getting your point across - redrafts are important, Yada yada yada.

[nickolaidas]

I think a good subversion of expectations can actually work in a Mary Sue character. For example, the main character of a series I've recently started thinking of making and I'm still in the concept phase starts as a Mary Sue due to her young age and pure heart, but the trials she'll suffer will harden her and urge her to make mistakes which will be detrimental to the story.

A Mary Sue character for the entirety of the series could end up being boring unless they have a personality trait which makes them really endearing to the public.

[system]

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