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Sep 2021

*cracks knuckles *

...Before I say anything else, I think I should mention that I have not actually read Dante's Inferno (I tried once, near the end of my book-reading days...I think I got through about 5 pages). But this isn't really about that specific story; that's just the example I see brought up most often.

An example of what, you ask? An example of the idea that it's wrong to refer to 'legacy' works of fiction using any of the popular vernacular that writers use today: you can't call the characters things like 'Mary Sues' or 'self-inserts', and god help you if you use the word 'fanfiction' to describe stories that expand on older tales.

What I'd like to ask is why??

I've never seen anyone give an explanation that's more than just judgmental (i.e. an expression of personal disgust...which is valid, but hardly a call for people you don't know to change their behavior).

I've seen a lot of things along the lines of 'so you really think [insert famous work of fiction] is equivalent to someone's My Little Pony/Voltron crossover isekai AU'...and those are funny and cute and get a lot of likes, but they're also just strawman arguments. =/ Just because the worst stories YOU have ever heard of happen to be fanfiction doesn't mean fanfiction in general is just a vehicle for bad writing.

It goes without saying, but there are a lot of great fanfiction writers out there, who put heart and thought and creativity into their work...I consider myself one of them. And it's a little insulting to think that the general consensus is that we all just mash our favorite characters together like Barbie dolls and call it a day. Writing a fanfic is still writing...literally. And if you can't write a good fanfic, I doubt your original work will be much better.

My point is, I see no reason why something like Dante's Inferno couldn't be written by someone today (although I guess it wouldn't be considered 'fanfiction' because people tend not to think of Christian theology as 'fiction', but that's another discussion entirely). And if that is the case...then what's the difference...??

To be perfectly honest, it sounds to me like just your average everyday 'those goshdarned kids' argument. Like, the meaning of the words isn't important; it's just the fact that younger people are applying the words and ideas they're familiar with to 'sacred' older concepts, and that makes people uncomfortable and angry.

There are possible justifications, though, especially depending on the age of the stories in question. Like...sometimes tales didn't get retold in different ways because a new author wanted to put their 'spin' on it, sometimes it happened because of the mechanisms of oral history, or because the original version was lost, or because there was never any 'original version'-- it was just meant to be a loose sequence of events that a storyteller could condense or expand to their taste.

You could also argue from a cultural standpoint, that the conditions and reasons for which we write fanfiction today and those for older authors, though similar in some aspects, were wildly different in others, enough to differentiate the practices.
Like, for one thing, writing in the 1400's was a lot more difficult and inaccessible than it is today...the types of people who could do it and the reasons for which it could be done (let alone copied and distributed) probably affected the selections of works that we know of nowadays.

I'm sure there are more sound arguments to make (that I've never seen anyone attempt, btw)...but that would require people to focus less on how revolting they think fanfiction is and more on actual critical thinking. 9_9;

But I still don't see why that would make it unacceptable to use words like 'fanfiction' at all...like, even if it's not a completely accurate thing to say, at worst it's just ideological shorthand, isn't it??

And no one has any issues with other forms of ideological shorthand...I hear plenty of it in science all the time. Like, if you're talking about tRNA 'looking' for complementary sequences to 'turn into' proteins...like, on a molecular level, that's not really what's happening. But it kinda feels that way, and saying things like that is easier when you're just trying to quickly get the point across, or...y'know, just talk casually about the issue with other people. ._. When did that become a cardinal sin...?

I feel like at least part of it, beyond fanfiction being 'amateur stuff' and older writing being 'sacred', is that the idea that the older established writers themselves (who are usually highly celebrated, since we're still talking about them decades or centuries later) are 'geniuses' whose work simply cannot be compared to the work of 'people on the internet' (as if we aren't all just people in a place...).
Like, if they've done things that are smart and good and amazing and influential, they must be a cut above. You can't compare your work to theirs because you're not even the same level of human that they are. You couldn't possibly be able to think in the same way, and if you don't agree it just shows how ignorant you are.

Which is just...not true. It's not...sure, there are people whose brains work differently from others, and that helps them see patterns and make observations and discoveries that other people can't/would take longer to figure out.
But A, you can't just assume that about someone who lived 300 years ago and whose inner life you know nothing about.
And B, no matter how well you know someone, you can't assume that they live their whole lives in 'Beautiful Mind'-mode...if you want to know whether something was a instinctual stroke of genius, the result of lots of in-depth thought and planning, or just for fun (because believe it or not, smart people DO have fun) you kinda have to ask them. Otherwise, all you have is a theory. Hopefully a well-researched and supported theory, but still just a theory.

And C, no matter how intelligent they and their creations are, it doesn't bar 'ordinary' people from relating to them, understanding them, or finding common ground with them. I would think that's the whole purpose of art, actually...like, by trying to police how people can talk about art, are you really trying to 'uphold respect for the medium', or are you trying to maintain an arbitrary divide between 'good opinion-havers' and 'bad opinion-havers' and hoping that doing so puts you in the former category...?

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Ah yes, The Divine Comedy. One of the greatest works of literature (cough Wikipedia said this not me cough) is a fanfiction. I'm well aware of this. You asked as to why we can't criticize these works despite being in the same margin of "fanfiction".

"Jumping ahead to the 20th century, the actual term "fanfiction" was coined in 1939 by the sci-fi community as a derogatory term to differentiate between crude, amateur sci-fi fiction and professional fiction, or "pro fiction." (Even decades later, the same stigma holds true.)" (Quoted fromhttps://www.google.com/amp/s/www.techtimes.com/amp/articles/70108/20150723/fan-fiction-star-trek-harry-potter-history-of-fan-fiction-shakespeare-roman-mythology-greek-mythology-sherlock-holmes.htm)

The term "fanfiction" is a relatively recent term, and is often used to refer to amateurly written literature based on an existing franchise or work of fiction. Now artists, most of the time, do have the habit of romanticizing the hell out of older works. Even better, we do tend to see art as some type of wine, the older it is, the better. Though personally I disagree. Quality takes no heed in whatever era you create your art in. Now forget your art professors and decide for yourselves the quality of these two:

And this

I'm guessing you know which is much ancient than which. The thing about older works such as the second one I showed, is that a huge percentage of its value comes from historical value rather than actual artistic quality. And yet these become the holy grail of nearly all art communities everywhere. Maybe in a thousand years people will worship the impeccable artistry of today's lawnmowers, who knows?

Now, going back to fanfiction. Almost every definition I looked up of fanfiction refers to relatively amateur works of fiction and often used as derogating terms. While there are several fanfictions I've read that are just SO good they beat the original game -- there are plenty others which go something like this: "HaRRy pIcKed Me Up in a Giant CucUmber And wE RodE off tO the PurPlE SunSet UwU" and everything else in between.

It's an indirect result of technology and internet. We are born in an age when we can publish anything with the click of a button. Three seconds, and it's done. Anonymity minimizes the consequences of our actions, as a result of these, most people simply just press publish without a second thought. This, inevitably, causes the shift in fanfiction's image, especially with more and more people having access to online publishing platforms. It's simply part of the natural law.

Romanticizing things isn't bad per se, but it's also important to be objective in our reasonings and judgement.

Also, I realized I wrote a whole-ass essay, I'm sorry

I have also not read Dante's Inferno (I did play the game, but that doesn't count.), but I'll put my thoughts out there.

Dante's Inferno could technically be called fanfiction because it is based on an original work. The Bible (I've never read it) seems to make extensive use of parables, which I feel exist more in the realm of fiction than non-fiction. However, I don't think it is considered that because it is in the realm of literary fiction. Dante's Inferno examines the human condition through the exploration of human evil. His medium for that exploration is a biblical retelling (??). Yes, it can be considered fanfiction because of the retelling aspect, but I feel the subject matter supersedes that definition.

Now, I wonder why Dante's Inferno may be able to supersede the definition, but not other fanfiction. That may be in part due to the Bible being in a gray area of fiction and non-fiction, and it may be because people have just decided that it deserves literary merit. Also, Dante's Inferno was introduced as an original work rather than derivative work, which would impact how it was viewed.

Fanfiction is polarized. On one hand, there is a group that loves it and engages with the communities and stories. On the other hand, there's a group that hates it and views it as "lesser" than original works. The polarization happens because people have either been more exposed to either the good or bad side of works, whether that be by actually reading works or by word of mouth. Unfortunately, public opinion seems to be on the more negative side. Some authors like Anne Rice have influenced opinion (don't quote me on that) by being so openly against fanfiction. I think fanfiction being a derivative is what makes it so unappealing. Bad original works exist, and they have since novels were invented. But, to some, a bad original work is better than bad fanfiction.

Pretentious people will always exist, and they will always find something to be pretentious about. Some people who think literary fiction is the peak of writing already look down on commercial fiction. The less intellectual a work gets, the less some people think about it. Even though commercial fiction and fanfiction can be plenty intellectual, the general vibe around them is insufficient. Dante's Inferno is literary, so putting it in any other category is insufficient.

I do agree with you that writing and publishing have become more accessible because of online spaces. I'm sure that there would have been way more terrible writing for people to sift through if the internet had been invented sooner. Generally, the amazing novels stand the test of time, not the novels that only sold 100 copies. Although, there are probably a plethora of good novels that were lost. Additionally, older novels have a historical worth. They can show cultural feelings and innerworkings of different time periods. On their own, some old novels may not be worth much, but their historical importance artificially inflates their value. All in all, I think it boils down to traditional opinions and historical value holding more weight.

I think it's a partly snobbery and partly because fanfiction is just a newer term. It's going to become much more common for fanfiction to be appreciated on its own strengths in the future if trends continue and then things that could be considered fanfiction will start being called such. At this point it's a negative to neutral label. But, as we see with things that are clearly fanfiction with the names changed, the amount of authors that have gone from "well it's an ok way to start but you have to move on" to "well I still write fanfiction event though I'm a best seller" and even Neil Gaiman's Study in Emerald that he describes as fanfiction, I think its going to get a lot better rep in the near future.

The one I've always wondered about it things like the Star Wars Expanded Universe which always felt like "official fanfic". And what about the upcoming Visions. Those studios were basically given free rein to do whatever they liked with Star Wars, does that make them fananimations? Fanfilms? Or official? Some grey area in the middle? (It makes the awesome if the trailer's anything to go by).

I think it's definitely something that's still evolving. The same question could be asked of why things like The Last Super aren't considered fanart.

Some fun facts about the Divine Comedy:

  • It contributed to the creation of Italian language. Before Dante Alighieri, there was no such a thing as an "Italian" language. Every kingdom/duchy/signoria had its own language (lingua volgare). Languages could be WILDLY different depending on the region you went to... something that is STILL reflected in today's italian dialects/languages (yes, languages). Try putting a Venetian and a Sardinian in the same room and asking them to speak their own languages, then watch chaos ensue as they completely fail to understand each other because the two things aren't even remotely similar. Yes, we had latin back in the Middle Ages, and yes, we had other authors using volgare before Dante, but Dante was the first to make such an extensive work in a language that was accessible to the people of Florence as a whole, not just a bunch of rich dudes who could afford the best teachers to learn latin.
  • It's not just a bunch of fictional characters that were thrown in there so that Dante could give his own spin to their stories. There are actual politicians, popes, priests and people from his era in there. Dante pretty much painted a picture of Italy and its culture during his era: he tells the stories of people who actually lived in Florence, uses his work to attack and criticize current politicians... and even religious figures. HE PUT THE POPE IN HELL, FFS! WHILE SAID POPE WAS STILL ALIVE. IN 1300. If that's not having some guts, I don't know what is :smiley:
  • The overall structure of the Comedy is extremely complicated, follows some VERY strict rules as far as number of syllables and rhymes go and deserves a whole essay all of its own. This is probably really difficult to notice if you don't read the work in the original language, but trust me on that... that shit is WILD.
  • It doesn't just stop with the political and cultural analysis: there's plenty of philosophy as well as theological discussions, which again, summarize perfectly the beliefs of his century.

Now, not saying that a fanfiction (in the modern sense of the term) can't have any of this stuff. However... correct me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to encounter a recent fanfiction that, together with being written following extremely strict rules, was also capable of:

-Contributing to the creation of a language and unifying a historically and culturally divided country;
-Painting an accurate picture of the cultural/social/political situation of an era;
-Discussing philosophy, theology and politics in depth, with plenty of theories/phrases that were more than capable to pass the test of time;
-Haveìing an influence on plenty of other authors, who then use it as an example for their own work;

It's not just about somebody deciding that they wanted to write a book about their favorite characters. It's not even just the fact that it's "old". The Divine Comedy had a profound cultural influence, shaped an entire country and is pretty much a national symbol, at least here in Italy. It's not about being snobs. My country wouldn't even BE what it is now without the Divine Comedy. I'd say that's... a liiiiiiiiittle different compared to your usual Internet fanfiction, don't you think? :slight_smile:

I feel like this discussion is inevitably more about why certain works are praised and valued and the negative connotations around the term "fanfiction" rather than the thread's question itself, but the thread's question is the one that I find more interesting so instead I'll just focus on that and see where it takes me.

The pre-Renissance/Renissance period that Divine Comedy was made in generally focuses (similarly to Classicism that will come later) around the return to the antic poetic standards. Beauty, in its philosophy, does not lie necessarily in the content or imagery, but the in form. The historical and artistic value of Dante's Inferno lies, first and foremost, believe it or not, in its structure. It's written in endecasyllables (every line has eleven syllables), the rhyme is structured to go in threes, and the overall work is structured to have 3 sections (Inferno, Purgatorio, Paradiso), with a total of 100 cantos; 3 symbolizing the holy trinity, 100 symbolizing the number of perfection. Numbers were a really big deal to Renissance poets.

With the return to the antic roots, however, is, to an extent, a return to the antic characters -- the depiction of Hell is not just focused around the Bible -- it has mythological characters -- the gatekeeper of Hell is King Minos, for instance. It has politicians and historical figures who were alive in Dante's time, it has Virgil the poet, it has Beatrice, the woman whom Dante loved even though they never even said a work because the guy was kind of creepy like that.

In general, I think Dante's Inferno is kind of a bad example for "fanfiction" regardless of the connotations behind the word; it utilizes mythology and religious concepts that have been around for so long that they've made their way into essentially all forms and media for centuries now. Once you call Dante's Inferno fanfiction, you essentially expand the definition to most, if not all works throughout history, at which point the point of the word itself starts to get lost. And there is still a point -- I inherently understand what you say when you say "fanfiction" on a general basis and that helps communication.

The fact that people might look down on the art form is, again, another discussion altogether, but I don't think that argument gets won by arguing "actually, existing works are basically fanfiction too, y'know"; at that point, it's a semantics discussion, and not a discussion on the worth authors can bring to the table by using existing stories as a starting point -- which is the ultimate argument that should be made, in my mind.

I mean, I get what you're saying, these are people way with more influence back then but my first thought was just, that makes it Real Person Fanfiction, which is looked down on even in the fanfic community. It's the same After.

I... thought the reason it's usually looked down in the fanfiction community is because people usually write fanfiction about real people to fulfil their sexual fantasies, something Dante did not? .__. Like... I'm not sure I understood your last sentence correctly, but if you were truly referring to After, the former One Direction fanfiction... I think there's a little bit of difference between "writing a highly politically charged book to criticize your government AND the main religious figure in an era during which you might get killed for it" and "writing a book in which I get laid with my favorite musicians because I can't do that in real life"? :confused:

I did say I understood what you were trying to say but that that was just my first thought.

Also hahahaaa if only they were just teenagers writing out their romantic fantasies. It starts with "this real person is actually a serial killer" stories and only gets weirder from there.

Ooooh, I see now! :smiley:

And yep, lol, I just went with what looks like one of the most popular options out there... but there's definitely lot of weird crap around featuring real life celebrities (which I definitely have NO interest to explore :'D)

For me the only reason I have a hard time calling Dante's Inferno fanfiction is because it ended up influencing the very thing it was, well, a fanfic of?

I do, however, agree that there are lots of talented fan fiction writers out there. I've read a number in recent memory where, the entire time I was reading, I kept thinking, "damn, just change the names of the characters and you have a solid manuscript that might even win a few awards." And this is BEFORE it's been through an editor! I'm a librarian, I see the average quality of published books (I usually have ~20 books at home at any given time, most of them I don't get through more than a few chapters), and there are so many UNEDITED fanfics that surpass that average. It's actually kinda nuts and very impressive.

I've always defined fanfiction as being about something that you don't have the copyright to technically publish but it's the internet and you're not making money off of it, so it gets a pass (not all the time, but most of the time). Writing about the bible, whatever--that's fair game. Writing about batman--yo that's fanfiction. But, people who write Batman under contract and under copyright--not fanfiction.

It's not really about whether it's bad or good (and I do agree that a lot of people look down on it, and it is because a lot of it isn't that great, you have to dig a little to find the good stuff.) It's that some things just aren't fanfiction.

Oh I fully consider it fan fiction. Self-insert fan fiction! And by most people's standards I think it could even be called a crack-fic for the wish-fulfillment cameos and lust ring alone. I feel like instead of pointing to other fan fiction in a way that implies their quality is too low to be on level with The Inferno, I feel like we should be pointing to The Inferno when people say that all fan fiction is poorly written or never matters to anyone.

To be clear, I love The Infirno as a story, but like, he shipped himself with a lady he met thrice and dissed every person he's ever disliked. Dude also eternally tortured everyone he didn't like, so he basically pulled a "cannon death but it only applies to Mineta" Also the sequel fits get even crazier. I mean I can wrap my head around what happens in the Purgatario, but the Oresteia is just bonkers

I feel like this is so often overlooked in discussion about how awesome Dante was. Like, there's a reason Inferno is the one people talk about. Lots of people don't even know it's more than Inferno. There is a reason for that.

Also, I hate to like drag Dante down because I liked Inferno too, but the argument that he defined so much in a way modern works (not just fanfiction) can't, I feel sorta falls under the umbrella of because there were far fewer people doing it. Like, if I had written my story back when reading and writing was a pretty rare occurrence, maybe I would have been held up as a classic, maybe I would have defined generation and languages. It's not really a surprise that fewer people doing it means the better ones stand out more.

How do you feel about works in the pubic domain like Bram Stoker's Dracula? If someone wrote a self-insert into that story, would you consider it fanfiction? Also, some translations of the Bible are under copyright. If Dante's Inferno was based on a copyrighted translation, would that make it fanfiction? Although, copyright law had not been invented when Dante wrote his epic.

@Audahlys If you do a vampire fiction that has dracula in it--it's not fanfiction, that happens all the time. Like Castlevania isn't fanfiction, it's just Castlevania. And whether or not parts of the bible are copywritten, is only dependant on the translation used--the story itself is not copywritten.

If Dante's Inferno is a fanfic, than any work based off of religious, myths, or classic stories are concerned fanfics. So all those classic Disney fairytale films are fanfics. I guess it's more like defining the difference between retellings of public domain stories vs fanfic AUs.

However, I do consider Paradise Lost a fanfic, mostly because people keep confusing elements from it with the Bible canon. I have come across people who are religious Christians who think they are talking about something stated in the Bible but they are actually talking about something in Paradise Lost.

I meant more if someone put their original character in the story of Dracula. Everything else was the same except for the inserted character.

@audahlys it's pretty common to do spins on Dracula, especially since he's based on a real person. I don't consider even something that close to Bram Stroker's original fanfiction. Especially since the original Dracula is like...that's a real guy who inspired it.

All we need now is for someone to come along and make a Divine Comedy fanfiction so good (or bad) it becomes mandatory reading in English classes and people start to look at it as it's own original work. Then in another 700 years someone else can repeat the process.

If you consider Devil May Cry to be fanfiction of Divine Comedy (i apologize to any DMC fans out there if saying such a thing is blasphemy, i know very little about the games) , then that's kinda already happened. And Devil May Cry already has a bunch of fanfiction made of it too, so it looks like we've built something really special here as a species.