Why do people hate Rey? ;_;

[AceRagz]

I never said it was retconned. Lukas revealed Anakin to be a nobody in one scene and a few later his mother says he had no father that she got pregnant even though she was a virgin.

[fattackycats]

Look, SW isn't perfect. It's got issues. It's a glorified space drama. The fandom of SW has always been predominantly men. Disney is changing that without understanding that the target demographic for star wars was for whoever wanted to like SW, regardless of sex or whatever. SW was already for everyone so why treat is as though it's just a man's power fantasy?

Disney doesn't seem to get that the majority of critique will come from men because those are the people who have always bought movie tickets, therefore men being the majority of critics of the new SW. They're trying to shove identity politics into SW under the guise of "inclusivity" and "diversity" at the expense of just making a good story, and it is actually hurting them in the long run. Don't get me wrong, at the end of the day I'm all for a female lead in SW, but the character of Rey is unfortunately used as a symbol for winning social politics and not for telling a good story. If you don't see it in the treatment and writing of the character, you can certainly see it in how people respond to the criticism of the character. Rey is bait, you are the fish.

@DokiDokiTsuna Respectfully, I, and a few others, have given you many reasons as to why we believe Rey to be a weak character, and yet you've denied them all or said no one has given you any evidence in this thread. Regardless of whether you agree with them, we certainly have been answering your initial post. Don't pretend as though we're speaking nonsense, it adds nothing to your point either.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I never said it was retconned. Lukas revealed Anakin to be a nobody in one scene and a few later his mother says he had no father that she got pregnant even though she was a virgin.

Um...I don't know how that explanation makes it clear that it wasn't retconned, but okay. My first point still stands though. Trailblazing is not a writing flaw, no matter how uncomfortable it makes the audience.

I would accept Rey as a good character if they actually showed her learning to do amazing shit. But they never explained or showed her LEARNING anything. She just does it willy nilly and we are expected to believe that she just can? How can she speak wookie? How could she re-wire and fly the Milennium Falcon? Why did Luke's light saber call to HER of all people? It's never explored. She bested Kylo Ren in battle (even Finn couldn't defeat him when Kylo was injured..Finn, who is already a trained storm trooper and probably has more combat experience than Rey), she bested Luke on the island and could have killed him, she killed a few of those red soldier guys that worked for Snoke without but a scratch on her arm. How? It's lazy.

There's some things she breezed through, or rather could do without any explanation as to how.

Hm. Interesting...
1. I dunno how she can speak wookie. But considering the diversity of her environment, it's not impossible. In her first speaking scene, she speaks both droid and...that other alien language.
2. Already mentioned this...
3. The story willed that one. And Rey being a 'chosen one' in itself is not a writing flaw.
4. Was Finn trained in lightsaber combat any more than Rey was?? He could have only worked guns and flown ships his whole life for all we know, and those skills don't necessarily translate to swordsmanship.
5. Luke was old and probably out of practice...although I don't remember Rey fighting him (I think I might, but...). I'll have to rewatch that. ^^
6. I think the story willed that one, too. XD But they're just fodder; in my book, that's forgivable.

[TAMAnnoying]

There’s actually a HUGE inconsistency with that scene and it’s one of the reasons that I came back to TFA and realized is actually.... pretty poorly written as well.

Dark side force users become stronger with emotions due to the dark side being the “easy” way to achive power. Kyle is clearly beating his wound in order to make himself stronger- at the very least he wants to WIN and one could say he was trying to offer his training to rey as a way to make her drop her guard. Rey is clearly more powerful then a Trained and EMOTIONAL dark force user on her first day of holding a lightsaber and THAT is the “show don’t tell” that she’s is an OP mastar of the force already. Which again.... would be fine if she had any consistent character moving forward.

[AceRagz]

Um...I don't know how that explanation makes it clear that it wasn't retconned, but okay. My first point still stands though. Trailblazing is not a writing flaw, no matter how uncomfortable it makes the audience.

You are completely ignoring what I said. If anything Anakin was trailblazing and in a bad way. He was the first to super powerful Jedi to be born from a slave mother. But then Lukas immediately botched it with the mediclorin thing and making Anakin into Jesus.

"And then the only time it was done it got retconned to maintain the status quo??"

Again I never said it was retconned. You assumed it was retconned. Anakin being revealed to be a nobody and then revealed to be basically from immaculate conception was all in the same movie. That is not retconning to maintain the status quo.

[fattackycats]

I could see that. I'm on the side that Kylo could beat her even with his injuries, but there's no convincing them otherwise.

In truth, I think the new movies aren't about Rey at all. Ironically, I think they're Kylo's arc, and maybe that's why Rey seems so weak to me, because they've done really well to flesh out Kylo and show his growth (or rather descent into the dark side), but haven't done much for Rey besides shroud her story in mystery. Kylo is torn between light and dark, his family, his guilt of killing his father. He has a direction to go.

[TAMAnnoying]

1. wookies are relatively going extinct in the SW univers shown in the prequels, it’s also madness to think a Wookiee would want to live in a desert planet considering their fur (like people trying to own huskies in Florida). There is no sane reason why she knows Wookiee

2. This one is a headache of an argument and I’m not a mechanic so...

3. so you are saying it’s a flaw tho? Because that’s one of the reasons why we’re upset with the writing. There is no reason for it to love her as much as it done when her parents are nobodies. And even in chosen one stories there’s SOME kind of presidence for why theirs a chosen one and wtf there supposed to be doing. We don’t even get that.

4. The fact that two nobodies stood up to Kylo and won should be reason enough to see there’s a problem. Even tho it still sucks, at least Fin held the lightsaber once before and used it in battle even if it was short. L

5. I don’t wanna get I to the distruction of luke cause none of you wanna here me rant I’m sure. But I’m somewhat forgiving of it since he cut himself off from the force (which is nonsense but whatever)

6. So many times were agreeing the the story is just doing things cause it wants to and not cause it makes sence? So why is it that we can’t say the same about rey? That the writers are just willing her to do things because they’re not good enough to have a plot and story arch for her?

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Respectfully, I, and a few others, have given you many reasons as to why we believe Rey to be a weak character, and yet you've denied them all or said no one has given you any evidence in this thread. Regardless of whether you agree with them, we certainly have been answering your initial post. Don't pretend as though we're speaking nonsense, it adds nothing to your point either.

I'm not pretending anything, I'm just not seeing anything important that she's been 'breezing through'.

People talk about Rey as if she is a superhero, who defeated entire armies with one finger and felled all the old masters of the Star Wars universe despite having no prior training...but she hasn't done those things. It's always little things, like "she flew the Falcon too well".

The antagonists are still antagonizing, and the only major antagonist that has died was killed by Kylo, not her. The 'good guys' are on the run and in more trouble than ever, tbh. It's unclear if Rey yet has what it takes to become a Jedi master, or if that's even her intention.

Most of the major problems and uncertainties of the story are still here or have worsened, and if Rey is supposed to be so great and incredible I don't see why she hasn't been given credit for resolving at LEAST one of them.

THAT'S what I'm asking for. Not a laundry list of reasons why she's a weak character; I admitted from the beginning that she might very well be one. My intention from the beginning was not to prove that Rey was good, as I stated, but to prove she's not nearly as horrible as people seem to think she is.

If anything Anakin was trailblazing and in a bad way. He was the first to super powerful Jedi to be born from a slave mother. But then Lukas immediately botched it with the mediclorin thing and making Anakin into Jesus.

Um...okay. Thanks for the info.

Again I never said it was retconned. You assumed it was retconned.

And I never disagreed with you after you told me it wasn't retconned. ^^ I'm learning things here, I don't pretend to be an expert.

In truth, I think the new movies aren't about Rey at all. Ironically, I think they're Kylo's arc, and maybe that's why Rey seems so weak to me, because they've done really well to flesh out Kylo and show his growth (or rather descent into the dark side), but haven't done much for Rey besides shroud her story in mystery.

...I've actually thought the same thing!

It's a shame I have to go to work now...this has been really fun~. See y'all in 4 hours, I guess...

[vfinnigan]

I think, before discussing if any character is a Mary Sue of any gender, we should establish what a Mary Sue is. I think this is a reliable checklist.

1. The character is a self insert. Granted, not all self inserts are Mary Sues, but all Mary Sues are at least on some level self inserts. What makes them Mary Sues is if they're idealized versions of the author. Telltale signs of a character being a self insert: similar (but in the case of Mary Sues, idealized) physical features or character traits, similar life experiences, and/or similar names.

2. The character is some prophesied "chosen one," or there's otherwise some ancestral prophecy.

3. The character is stunningly beautiful and may know it, but will at most humblebrag about it.

4. Unnaturally talented at absolutely everything. Note that it doesn't count if the character whose established backstory includes having to fight for everything is depicted as a good fighter. Neither are gifted characters necessarily unrealistic. Just challenging to write well and often only relatable to similarly gifted people.

5. Morally flawless. Can do absolutely no wrong, and if she (because characters accused of being Mary Sues usually are female) does something morally gray or even outright wrong, she never faces repercussions, always has perfect justification in the author's eyes, and all other characters come around to her line of thinking, which leads to the next couple points.

6. Everybody's fond of the character without any particular reason - especially if the character has demonstrated no likeable qualities.

7. The character never struggles with anything. No challenges, no moral crises. The most difficult problem she faces is who, among the panoply of characters who are all inexplicably in love with her, she will date.

Given these criteria, I pronounce Rey not a Mary Sue.

[TAMAnnoying]

See if you told me that after TFA I’d be into it but even now that still seems like a really flimsy story arch. Guy goes from being a darth Vader fan boy and worshiping a helmet (that we never see again >.>) to hating everyone and thinking everything needs to be destroyed (which I didn’t reeeeaaaallly mind) because snoke told him he looked silly (for I guess the first time ever??) and THEN in the same movie because rey didn’t wanna be “ma Queen” he decided “ok actually the first order can stay and imma kill the resistance cause rey didn’t wanna play house with me even tho I met her.... literally yesterday (and yes it’s been maybe three days since they’ve known each other) Disney hasn’t changed it’s ways with its romance it seems

[DiegoPalacios]

Yes, she has a sad backstory of abandonement and struggling to survive, but many mary sues have extremely sad backstories too.

I think Rey is accused of being op because of her skills and talent breaking the willing suspension of disbelief for many viewers.

While talent and/or skills is expected, specially in a chosen one, there is a point where it feels like everything was handed to her.

Being a natural when it comes to the force can be expected for a protagonist, it happened to Anakin too. (also i love how the scene where Luke describes the force and the meditation goes. It shows the mysticism of the force better than in the previous movies.) But i gotta say there is a massive difference between quick learning and instant mastery.

Rey developing combat skills makes sense for someone of her background, her staff fighting style is really neat, and make her stand out from other protagonists, but there is a massive difference between fighting with a staff and fighting with a sword. I can say this from experience because i trained kenjutsu for a couple of years. We even have a couple of jojutsu classes(fighting with a staff).

I think the writers wasted a chance for an unique jedi fighting style. Ex: having her fight with a long double blade. This would make more sense, and if this weapon doesn`t exist this could have been a clever excuse to explain lightsabers, and get her in a journey where she earn her unique weapon.

But something that i think breaks the most of some people`s willing suspension of disbelief are her ability to quickly bond with people despite her loner background.

[jensrichard77]

My childhood hero Luke Skywalker (Good or bad written do not matter. But that he is a childhood hero)

The actor Mark Hamill has for 30 years kept that hero alive.

The creator of the new Star Wars setting him in front telling he is back.
Then they make a new hero better than him and turn my childhood hero into a hobo.

And the creators claiming official that if you do not like it then you are a woman hater.

How can this not give any debate on the internet?

[BlueWorldComics]

Not liking Rey doesn't make one an anti-SJW, but if one IS an anti-SJW, I will need some proof that they are above ridicule.

And to be clear, if you have a problem with "SJW's" that's... fine... I guess... But one can not like a character because their inclusion feels like merely pandering to a specific demographic WITHOUT joining a large conspiratorial community bent on pushing back against positive social change because they preferred a time when they DIDN'T have to think about such things...

Does this clarify my original post? If not, just see me out of this conversation...

[vfinnigan]

It depends on the kind of sword, though. I've trained in jojutsu and with the katana, as well as in fencing. It's also worth noting that she uses the light saber more like a blunt weapon until adapting to Kylo's light saber technique, relying on the Force, and then properly slashing with the light saber. She's been a survivor for most if not all of her life, and survivors are, among other things, skilled at adapting and learning on their feet. Let's give her some credit for having an ounce of street smarts and flexibility here.

[TAMAnnoying]

Not that I disagree with you but I feel it’s important to say that JJ did specify that he picked out all the actors for diversity reasons and not based on skill :v but that’s besides the point of writing skill.

[vfinnigan]

What, because it's a zero sum game, and a diverse cast can't have skill?

[TAMAnnoying]

Bring for diversity is not the same as hiring for credentials no, but I’m not even arguing if there good actors or not. I’m just making sure that theirs a citation of what he has choicen to do

[BlueWorldComics]

I would argue that there's a difference between diversifying your cast and just pandering. It's not a huge difference, but the devil's in the details.

[TAMAnnoying]

I’m not upset that she can swing a sword around. I’m upset that she can swing a sword around untrained AND beat up a traine swordsman- and no I don’t think him being wounded mattered- being in pain and emotional states makes dark force users STONGER as show by kylo BEATING his wound during the fight

[TAMAnnoying]

I believe in JJs cause it might have been pandering on Disney’s behalf. but that may just be my skeptic showing. I’m not familiar with a lot of his backstory or what he usually brings to his work so you may be correct