Audiences Hate Bad Writing, Not Strong Women

[AmysGames]

Yeah, this is true too. It's like the message is "be just like a man, except better than a man because all the men suck." Like... what kind of backwards logic is that?

[VibrantFox]

Okay, so a former friend made me watch a lot of Wuxia which is the style they were going for with the live-action Mulan. Her "chi-powers" are totally on brand for the genre but they forgot about that the fact that her "gravity-defying" martial arts ability is standard for the genre. EVERY trained martial artist can do what Mulan can do. So her having to learn control and to struggle to improve her skills would have been WAY more

So noting again that I havent watched the live action disney film nor am i familiar with Wuxia but i agree in a general sense that a characters struggle being them having to understand and better control their ability would likely be more interesting

I get this. I really do. I think people tend to forget that "strong" has more than one meaning, especially when it comes to characters. They always seem to equate "strong" with physical strength instead of nuanced characters. Especially when I was younger, I tended to gravitate more toward male characters because they tended to be nicer and friendlier. Now, I just want well-developed characters.

My thing with this probably ties into what river mentioned about "gender expectation" because I was the type who preferred the morally grey outcast character with a chip on their shoulder than the ball of sunshine since they didn't feel as shallow or superficial (which is less a critique on the "nice and friendly" character but more a personal preference). I could name a number of instances where I didn't mind the "strong female lead" or the "nice and friendly type" but it's depended on the story they were in and whether their behavior made sense in the context of the story

If anything I sometimes feel like it could just be a matter of personal preference folks have than quality but :shrug:

[cherrystark]

My thing with this probably ties into what river mentioned about "gender expectation" because I was the type who preferred the morally grey outcast character with a chip on their shoulder than the ball of sunshine since they didn't feel as shallow or superficial (which is less a critique on the "nice and friendly" character but more a personal preference). I could name a number of instances where I didn't mind the "strong female lead" or the "nice and friendly type" but it's depended on the story they were in and whether their behavior made sense in the context of the story

If anything I sometimes feel like it could just be a matter of personal preference folks have than quality but :shrug:

Which I totally get. Personal preferences and opinions do shape a lot of dialogue when it comes to how characters are seen. I haven't seen Captain Marvel, but all the clips I've seen of her, she's cold and lectures people to "prove" she is strong. I've seen other characters where her only "warmth" comes from having a sister she mentions occasionally. I've rather see more female characters making choices that fit the situation or even respond like a regular person would than trying to fit a character mold.

[NickRowler]

I feel like if you haven’t seen Captain Marvel, then you don’t realize understand that the issues go beyond just the title character. Everyone in the film is sort of flat. I think it’s just made more annoying by having “Just a Girl” by No Doubt playing. Or how the last shot of the film is a cat vomiting. Also the thing with Nick Fury’s eye also annoyed me.

[cherrystark]

Which makes sense. I just remember feeling very unimpressed when I saw the trailers. And she got the same flat, one-note presentation in Marvel fanfiction that Black Widow does, which arguably has little to do with the fan fiction writers' abilities and more to do, I believe, with the fact Marvel decided to forgo giving most of the women actual characterization.

[Lensing]

I saw the preview of that video and I think it´s an interesting but also very complicated, multi layered topic.

I always thought that Dana Scully of the series X-files was an example of a well written, strong, female character

[NellieVP318]

I really miss the days when female characters were not these cold emotionless robots who surround themselves with weak men, and were instead these women who truly could stand on their own two feet, but were also kind, fun, had friends and were not ashamed to fall in love with a great person who can be an equal partner.

Why can't female characters be strong and also have feelings? Why can't they be strong and also have interests? You can still have a female character be really cool and beat up bad guys for fun, but they can also like pink and have a boyfriend and be clever and have friends. I hate a lot of these "strong female characters" because they're just stereotypical male characters but with boobs slapped onto them.

All these quotes sum up when I was taking to my writer partner about these things recently. I remember watching that video a while ago I believe. If anything I noticed a lot with some of the Disney's live action princess remakes is that Disney is very into having the princesses not "relying on a prince to save them" in their remakes. While sometimes, it's good message to not "wait someone", however it can swing to the other side where you get these hyper independent female characters who push male characters aside and won't own up to their flaws. I just overall think that's not healthy message to teach to children in general in my opinion. In an ideal world, the media should be pushing for a balance and the fact it's okay to stand on your own while having a partner and even friends.

What bothers me about the trend of "strong female women" is demonizing "girly" things just to empower women. That's not being a strong woman. I personally don't see it as empowering to me.

[Kuma]

I want to give an example of my fandom experience. I love Doctor Who, but I despised the latest seasons, which happen to have for the first time a female Doctor. But much like the title of this thread, the issue wasn't the gender of the character, but the god awful writing with some of the worst episodes of the show, that not even the most popular actors among the ones who have portrayed the Doctor would've saved from being absolutely ass.

The actress kept bringing her A-Game no matter what shit-tastic script she got. She literally had to do a pro-workplace exploitation speech. Which is fucking insane.

As a writer I might be guilty of making a "badass female character" for work, as that's how I wrote Vanessa Held for the Videogame "Obey Me" (Not the dating sim one, another) She has softer edges that some other characters, but I cannot say I made her too femenine. She is brash, agressive and sarcastic, but also avoids being too masculine. I think I aimed for a gender neutral representation and still I think I failed.

Is a relatively difficult balancing act when you write for an action videogame without that much budget.

[abigaillmartin]

I completely agree. It’s what I really don’t like about these characters beating women for being girly and encouraging to suppress their feminine qualities.

I want to see men and women fight alongside each other and not with each other overpowering the other. This is honestly one of the reasons why I wanted to write my comic Elsie and write characters that were likable and still strong but still go through their own struggles. One of the biggest influences on Elsie was Wonder Woman (the recent movie) Dianna and Steve they fought alongside each other and had great chemistry, well there’s a lot I can talk about the movie it’s lovely. But anyway in Elsie, the two main female characters Rosemary and Elsie while Rosemary likes pink and flowers and traditional girly things like that, she eventually gets super strength. Elsie is more tomboyish but still embraces her femininity and acted normally according to their time period. I’m just trying to say you can still write a good character with women embracing their femininity.

Now for the main male characters that fight aside them. While Ernest and Roy don’t really have any superpowers, besides if you count Ernest’s big brain, these guys help Elsie and Rosemary through their struggles and vice versa. Roy is loyal to Elsie to help her in anyway he can and while he can be a little bit incompetent sometimes, he cares about the well being of all his friends. Ernest is also more of a mentor to Elsie throughout the series. Rosemary and Roy are brother and sister and they build each other up. They all have a mutual connection and build each other up. Take that away and no one wants to read it.

[HGohwell]

I completely agree. It’s what I really don’t like about these characters beating women for being girly and encouraging to suppress their feminine qualities.

I always find this interesting how this is disucssed, it's very rarely brough up that this is the essentailly the same text different font of "I'm not like other girls". Both of them deride typically feminine qualities, while also pandering too them, by way of the character nearly always actually being beautiful and still getting the man in the end ect. They both say "it's wrong to actively try to have these feminine qualities but they are still the things that should make you happy". Women who actively work on their looks or chase romance are shallow and vain and dumb, you should obtain these things without actively chasing them. While "not like other girls" tries rejects feminity in favour of things like bookish and quiet and uninterested in boys, more of a lack of femine qualities, "strong female character" rejects feminity in favour of things like strength, lack of emotions and volitility (despite apparently being ruled by logic not emotion), more like embracing masculine qulities. And while neither of these things are necessarily bad things, these things often become the defining trait of a character. And that's where the problem is.

[abigaillmartin]

While "not like other girls" tries rejects feminity in favour of things like bookish and quiet and uninterested in boys, more of a lack of femine qualities, "strong female character" rejects feminity in favour of things like strength, lack of emotions and volitility (despite apparently being ruled by logic not emotion), more like embracing masculine qulities. And while neither of these things are necessarily bad things, these things often become the defining trait of a character. And that's where the problem is.

Captain Marvel steps onto the scene

Rosemary is crying because she got hurt.

CM: Why are you crying you can’t cry.

Elsie: Hey leave her alone.

New Jo from the s***ty Little Women remake: I’m not like other girls and I’m from the 19th century and I don’t conform to my periods social norms at all look at me. Weeeeee!

Wendy from Peter Pan and Wendy: BUT THIS MAGIC BELONGS TO NO BOY!! derp face

Ernest: Shut the feck up Wendy.

CM: You are a creepy patriarch who is a hollow representation of the generalization of men everywhere you are bad.

Ernest: wide eyed No… I’m… I don’t get it.

CM: And I’m powerful to destroy the world and beat and I never earned it.

Ernest: Wonder why no one likes you? You are stripped of emotion, clearly an asshole and is out for your own gain and they call you a strong role model?

Rosemary: Don’t provoke them!

it doesn’t end well

I dunno what this is but it’s illustrating my complaints about these trends and tropes. Someone please add onto this.

[cherrystark]

Same! Because in reality, there are times when you can't save yourself. You're going to need your own Samwise Gamgee to help get you there and your friends on eagles to swoop in and save you. One of the best examples I've seen of a woman and her love interest committing to be real partners is Shawn and Juliet. They swore to protect each other no matter what. Juliet also has a super tight bond with Lassiter and Gus. And in moments when she needed saving, she could trust them to be there.

While "not like other girls" tries rejects feminity in favour of things like bookish and quiet and uninterested in boys, more of a lack of femine qualities, "strong female character" rejects feminity in favour of things like strength, lack of emotions and volitility (despite apparently being ruled by logic not emotion), more like embracing masculine qulities. And while neither of these things are necessarily bad things, these things often become the defining trait of a character. And that's where the problem is.

"Not Like Other Girls" messed me up when I was a kid.

[GodbreakerComic]

...I'd even go as far as saying top 3.

[GodbreakerComic]

The issue I keep seeing is studios thinking unstoppable powerful badass who has no fear = strong/empowering. Which is completely wrong. Mulan is a great example on how to do it both right and wrong.

Animated Mulan she wasnt some powerful badass chosen one. She was just a girl. She wasn't even that good of a fighter at first and was kindof shitting bricks but despite that she pushed foward because she never lost sight of what she wanted. The point being this could be anyone. Her abilities dont make her special, her perseverance does.

Live action Mulan completely missed the point and made her Neo from the matrix? Shes the best and was born with magic powers no one else has blah blah blah. So... how is this supposed to be empowering? The audience has no powers, so they cant see themselves in the character. Not empowering.

[HGohwell]

I always find it interesting that despite one of the early claims of the live adaptions being that it would be accurate to the original tale and "Mulan isn't a superhero" the animated is far more accurate to the spirit of the story. The super powers aren't the worst thing, if everyone had them, it just falls in line with martial arts movies and stuff. But I always remember one line that sticks out which is roughly translated as "male and female hares look the same when running side by side" which is the point. Mulan was just a girl who went to war, proved herself as just as good as a man and then came home and returned to a normal life. The live action even includes a scene of two hares side by side in a nod to this, but then ignores the meaning of the hares, it's sort of hilarous like that.

[powerplantanimations]

What annoyed me about She-Hulk was they weren't creative enough with the fourth-wall breaking concept. I remembered they planned on doing a Office-inspired Damage Control series and I thought it would've been brilliant if THIS entire series were done in that format?

I constantly think back to the "Jim looking at the camera" meme. It would've been funny if Jen was like... THE ONLY ONE who talks to the camera because nobody else has time and could easily accomplish a metaphor for what the Dinsey + Show was trying to accomplish (what with her having this powerful ability but she still has to be told what to do in her Hulk form).

Also could you imagine if we get like far shots of Daredevil wrecking the place like a ninja and we cut to Matt Murdock casually walking into the office like nothing? I think that would've eased people into this iteration a little more since his previous adaption (THE BEST THING MARVEL HAS EVER MADE IMHO DON'T @ ME :B) is grimm dark.

Another thing HAS to be HOW She-Hulk breaks the fourth-wall and how that just straight-up.... killed the MCU for me on a worldbuilding level. Especially when you compare how Deadpool does it and how they weave it into the narrative? Deadpool works because he's a slave to the narrative.

I get where they were going for with She-Hulk, but the ending suggests that she's OP... also the K.E.V.I.N. reveal takes away from the concept of One Above All or the Beyonder. I won't lie when whenever I see her on screen in a film Imma be like "What's stopping you from doing this?". With Deadpool the joke is he tries doing whatever the Hell he wants only for things to bite him in the ass horrifically... as if the universe is telling him "You can't do that". The only thing that'll fix it for me is if Deadpool talks with K.E.V.I.N. too in 3 because like... it doesn't make sense for someone as deranged as him to not do that. Metaphors about the pressures of being a woman aside.

At this point though, She-Hulk is practically god which... granted in the comics she can break the fourth-wall but the MCU is different since up until that point continuity is gospel? Whereas the comics are more on the weird side where they contradict themselves with almost every issue.

I'm fine with Sex and the City She-Hulk. I was EXCITED for Sex and the City She-Hulk... I wish the writers were creative enough, however.

That's also not to mention the weird behavior with the writers where they WANTED people to be angry which at this point is annoying af now in Hollywood. Like I dislike that that behavior has become the status quo? I don't think writers who actively do that deserve jobs. They try to pass it off as "brilliant" or "subversive" because "we're bringing out the butthurt fans ha ha". Call-outs like this are pathetic anyway since you're giving these trolls (THE WEAKEST KIND) a platform.

Annnnnnd yeah.... the scene where She-Hulk said she has a harder life than Bruce was dumb. I get characters being angry for the sake of angry because human but like... I could see someone like Jessica Jones telling Bruce this (btw GREAT SHOW)... and character wise, not even she would even go this far (judging by her relationship with Matt and how she sympathizes with his struggles in Defenders). I CAN'T for the life of me see/sympathize with a fun-loving person like Jen only for her to say something so horrid.

But yeah, I wanted to share my thoughts on the show because like... I saw it as a turning point for the company. It might've done well review wise, but Hollywood reviewers will gobble anything up if it discusses certain topics (quality be damned). They're not the best indicator anymore. As for ratings, it had a significant drop-off in episodes, making it one of the lowest-viewed Marvel show next to Ms. Marvel (which is THE lowest atm, although I didn't see that one).

Yeah there's idiots online who'll hate this show for the wrong reasons...... but nevertheless, I do think this particular show (alongside Ant-Man) speaks volumes of where the universe is headed. One thing is for sure....

The Fantastic Four reboot is def going to be an indicator about whether or not Marvel thought this show was quality or not. I could see them soft rebooting She-Hulk personality wise like how What If backtracked on Captain Marvel personality and power-level wise.

[Stargazer31]

Captain Marvel may be a terribly written Mary Sue, but I think we all know that by now, and I'm frankly sick to death of 3-hour video essays blaming her for all the world's woes
She's badly written, probably by a group of middle aged men, but that doesn't justify all the crap Brie Larson gets thrown at her for it

[river121693]

the 4th wall break is the point of She-Hulk though. Her breaking everything is getting super creative with it. I think it's much more creative than an Office Style talking to camera while still trying to keep with MCU world building. Also it's comic accurate. She has ended plot points by doing it in the comic.

I think show should be written to be creative and good before any corporate mandated world building so I have no issues with her being the most powerful character. The conclusion where she broke everything was a good fit for the show and that's what that matter. I can compartmentalize on a meta level that her power is rewritten to be whatever the movie serves. The show makes us completely aware of it through the final 4th wall break too.

I didn't see anything offensive or weird in the show.The only people who are butthurt at that "butthurt" comment are the butthurt fans who dislike her for just... twirking. Her snark makes sense because she's aware of them. She can be snarky at toxic ppl if she wants to.

[BoomerZ]

She's badly written, probably by a group of middle aged men, but that doesn't justify all the crap Brie Larson gets thrown at her for it

She brought it on herself with her attitude in the pressers.

[river121693]

what attitude?
None of it makes her deserving of the crap she got.