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Junohugger
Sep '22
GumshoeComix

Totally agreed! This is something I want to get across very generally with this thread, those aren't the rules! those are just surface things – they can be whatever you want! and are, in fact, often the most fun and most creative part! Don't be putting rules in place before they're actually needed IMO. I feel like every time one of these "should X always be X" threads come up, the answers are unilaterally "NO! In fact, stories that do X are SHIT!!!" and i'm like, okay fuck off then with my tragic villain. How dare!!!!

GumshoeComix
Sep '22

Ikr like that's not the way to deal with that, its not either or when it can be both.
and dw myself and a TON of other people are still suckers for tragic villains. I think that thread just attracted the worst kind of responses

Junohugger
Sep '22

There are a LOT of them though, the villain one got me I wont lie cos my villain is the "bad" kind in that thread's view, okay fine whatever. But there seems to be a larger trend of "should X be Y" which is just a poor way of framing a discussion imo, I think we ought to aim higher than that when it comes to discussion!

joannekwan(ง ˙o˙)ว here to help~
Sep '22

Honestly there's so much nuance to a situation and it's totally dependent on everyone's individual story they're trying to tell that I've stopped replying to such threads altogether because it takes time that I'm short on. Because it's not a yes or no question LOL

DokiDokiTsuna
Sep '22

I feel like a lot of these threads get started because either (a) OP is simply looking for confirmation of a viewpoint they already hold, or (b) OP is just an amateur who's trying to learn what is and isn't acceptable in the world of writing. ^^;

I mean, when a lot of writing advice is presented as 'Top 10 Awful Disgusting Tropes That Will Automatically Make Your Story a Failure Simply By Virtue of Existing'...it doesn't surprise me that a lot of young writers get the idea that certain things are either 'allowed' or 'forbidden' in a story, with no room for nuance in between.
I mean, there are things that you shouldn't do as a writer, but very, VERY rarely do those things boil down to simply avoiding a whole entire character archetype or event. Like you said, pretty much anything can work if you make it work.

Personally, I like to take those topics as an opportunity to break down the 'binary thinking', and examine why some people feel things should be done just one way, or why people feel OTHER people are only doing things one way. ^^; There's no rule that says you have to reply with a yes or a no.

Lensing
Sep '22

Everything is possible and has also been done in story writing, art and music.
And the rules are never yes or no guidelines in any field but it´s always good to
know fundamentals, formulas or whatever you want to call it.

An experienced artist told me 7 years ago, learn the rules, forget the rules and
then create.
I understood this in a way that you want to figure out how someone created
a piece of art or a story and then create your own stuff using the tools that
feel right for you and the story. The more stories and ways to create stories
you know the better because it´s good to know a lot of options

Freemints30
Sep '22
2
DokiDokiTsuna

Honestly that writing advise issues hits the nail on the head.

Alot of new writers tend to take thier advise from online personalities. On surface level there isnt anything wrong with that. Free learning resources and information is always a good thing

But alot of the advise pushed up in the social media algorithms are more... personal bias rather than actual advise and 9/10 more to make the creator of the advise thread or video to look like a good person rather than actually help people.

I will always rember the brain let of a thread that said "dont write enemies to lover. Friends to lovers is a better romance" or something akin to that.

Which is...

Bruh I might as well say "don't write human X human. That makes your story boring. Nasty monster X human is the highest form of love".

It's a personal bias rather than advise.

I see it alot in genres looked down upon. Like writing a romance book advise can boil dont to "dont make romance a big part make (insert what the writer of advise likes here) more prominent"

"Dont use use that immature unsofisticated toilet humor ever" even thou that kind of jokes do appeal to people especially if done very well.

"X is too dark to ever have"

"Sex/violence should always be implied never shown cus-"

"Never use modern slang in dialogue EVER"

And so on and so on

Like...

It takes years to identify the ocean of bad advise from the nuggets of good. It's honestly good some people are asking questions to grow out of that kind of thinking from people with more experience

aqua03Party Planner
Sep '22
DokiDokiTsuna

Ex-freeking-actly! I've struggled with that ever since I tried working on my stuff back in the day and I still struggle with it a lot. Not helped by the fact I watched a lot of comedy critics and mroe serious critics, so I always got this vibe that I needed to avoid most every trope or cliche to make something amazing. Doesn't help that I was big into "Cultural Critics" of both sides, so it also felt like I needed to avoid a lot of tropes or less I'd be labeled as an "SJW type" or a "Problematic guy" if that makes sense. Just that general algorithim "Don't do this or you are literally worse than every bad person ever!" type of stuff really hurt me a lot and is something I'm still struggling with. Because at the end of the day, you really can;t please everyone.

ratscout
Sep '22

I 100% agree. XD I think we need to ban the word "trope." because people think when they are using any given trope that it makes a story bad because the word kinda has negative connotations. But guess what, most stories are made up of tropes, haha. Anyway, I always say that anything can work in a story. It just depends on how it's done. A lot of people on Tapas are really picky and volatile, though. It's kinda like, if there is any hint of a trope they don't like, they take it personally, hahaha. I like both tragic villains and villains who are just villains for the sake of being villains.

Junohugger
Sep '22
aqua03

That's a good way to sum it up. Raw Cinemasins energy, I can't stand it. Reminds me of that huge Twitter thread of horrific "writing tips" that went viral for being exactly that kind of shallow, taste based "advice". But hey, it draws eyes and clicks and arguments, doesn't it :wink:

Junohugger
Sep '22
ratscout

You know what, I feel like boss mode in making villains is have one of each, and then make them fight one another :sunglasses:

Awesomeness_Studios
Sep '22
1

On days like these, I feel great about making goofy-ahh gaming comic with my little silly jokes and my silly little tropes. People can't tell me I'm "doing it wrong" anymore bc that's the point. /srs

EDIT: I really wonder if one day someone unironically tries to approach me to tell me I'm doing it wrong bc of those things. The most I've gotten was "it's too fast for me" and yknow what I gueeeesss that's a valid concern but everyone else is good with the fast pacing so I'm leaving it like that.

UrMom
Sep '22

I didn't look at the threads you mentioned, but I never really cared to learn about tropes because it doesn't matter (To me.), a good story is all in the execution. No trope, unless it's directly related to hate speech, is bad. To think so is dumb, and limits your possibilities.

Also personally I prefer flamboyant villains who like to be evil for the fun of it, but a sad backstory villain is good too.

Awesomeness_Studios
Sep '22

I don't get what the deal is with tropes. They are fun as heck and appear naturally in the creative process.

When you want to learn about tropes, it should be in an analytical type of way. Because it's an actual part of literary analysis.


You don't learn this stuff as a tutorial to "write better." You learn this stuff so you can get a better understanding about creative works, which usually leads to you understanding more of your own process.

In my case, understanding tropes has helped out tremendously with my comic, thank God. A lot of it relies on parody, so being able to repeat clichés, rhetorical devices, templates, etc. (which all fall under the definition of a tropes) effectively leads to a satire that makes sense. If I did not intentionally do this, no one would understand that JumpHero is supposed to be set in a videogame-like world.

I mean look at literally pages 6 and 7 of the entire series.

6.png940x1407 375 KB
7.png940x1407 312 KB

You don't even need to read the series description to understand what this means, and I think that's why people always have good things to say about this particular spread.

So yeah, that's my regularly scheduled defense on tropes and what learning them actually means. Like this thread topic is saying: it's not a yes trope or no trope situation, but rather if you understand the cultural context behind them and how to use or change them properly.

I highly suggest dumpster diving through TV Tropes whenever ya'll get the chance (I think new creators definitely need to try this out). One, because that wiki is very good at clearly explaining how tropes, literary devices, and genre conventions work to the average person, but also because it's really fun, especially when you're reading about media you like. Definitely go do it (and if someone would like to go through the effort of making a page for JumpHero, I would not stop you :supicious_stache:).

darthmongoose
Sep '22

Ahhh this binary stuff can be hard, because the urge is strong to tell a creator "NO! Don't do that!" about things that don't normally work... except you know somebody made it work somewhere in very specific circumstances.

There's always this long list of caveats that make the advice feel watered down and less punchy.

Like people always say "Don't make an overpowered mary sue protagonist!" but... well, what's the most popular novel on Tapas? The Beginning After the End, which absolutely has a protagonist who is so outrageously overpowered that the story has to create challenge for him by having him choose to not use some of his abilities to hide them for political reasons, and is also so handsome that every female character he comes across is way into him and also he has a pet mini version of Toothless from HtTYD, and is so good at what he does that he replaces the teacher on his first day in class. He is... a Mary Sue, but also, The Beginning After The End is a phenomenally popular novel, far more popular than anything I've ever made.... so how could I ever, seeing that, tell somebody "don't write mary sue characters" ?

So the advice then has to become so vague that people can't follow what you're trying to tell them any more:
"Try to make a protagonist who isn't so powerful or loved that the reader can't be worried that they might lose things they care about or feel the emotional pain of disconnection from others..." and even then... there's still somebody out there who has probably broken that rule and found success.

I often tell people "Don't do some long text opening crawl about lore in your comic" But... Magical Boy starts with one, and that's a good comic! Star Wars always starts with one, The Fellowship of the Ring... Avatar the Last Airbender has an iconic one, and Undertale, of course (which itself is inspired by Zelda: The Windwaker)... So then the advice needs to be modified to:
"Don't start your comic with a long opening text crawl just because you couldn't think of how to start your story. It's a tool for very specific circumstances." which relies on a level of self-awareness and planning that the kind of person who shoves in an opening lore crawl at the start without understanding how to use one probably hasn't quite developed yet.

Ultimately, the most important thing a writer can have is experience, and advice or guidelines are just there to help get you on track before you have the experience to know why you're following those rules, or when you can break them.

Awesomeness_Studios
Sep '22

Now that you're saying this, probably the best pieces of writing advice would have to be from individual reviews of each persons' work. There's no simple rule that works for everyone.

Also I love that TBATE example because I read and enjoy TBATE and you are so freaking right. And I still don't know why every female falls in love with him so quickly.