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Junohugger
Sep '22
2

I feel like this is a common thrust in the discussions here. Questions that pose a yes or no answer to story challenges. I feel like this is such a reductive way to view storycraft. It's not yes or no, one or the other. I want to post this not so much to clickbait, but to state that I believe the beauty in storycraft is that it can be whatever you choose, as long as you, in Tim Gunn's words "MAKE IT WORK" . I'm a simp for villain's with sad backstories actually, that doesn't make me a hack! It just makes me a simp.

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DiegoPalacios
Sep '22

The answer for many tropes is that it depends.

Tropes are storytelling tools, so which ones you use depends a lot of the kind of story you are telling, and even among stories of the same genre, the answers will not always be the same.

Junohugger
Sep '22

EXACTLY, right? I feel like it misses the forest for the trees. Sad backstory, no sad backstory, whatever! The only question is: is it GOOD? And that's not something that's answered in a yes or no.

GumshoeComix
Sep '22

i feel this, and a lot of comments on those threads are volatile whether they mean to or not.

But I know they were started wth the intention of looking for some kind of direction or validation with their writing, since writing has so many innocuous rules, they probably thought they'd be breaking a rule by not giving them a backstory.

Junohugger
Sep '22

Totally agreed! This is something I want to get across very generally with this thread, those aren't the rules! those are just surface things – they can be whatever you want! and are, in fact, often the most fun and most creative part! Don't be putting rules in place before they're actually needed IMO. I feel like every time one of these "should X always be X" threads come up, the answers are unilaterally "NO! In fact, stories that do X are SHIT!!!" and i'm like, okay fuck off then with my tragic villain. How dare!!!!

GumshoeComix
Sep '22

Ikr like that's not the way to deal with that, its not either or when it can be both.
and dw myself and a TON of other people are still suckers for tragic villains. I think that thread just attracted the worst kind of responses

Junohugger
Sep '22

There are a LOT of them though, the villain one got me I wont lie cos my villain is the "bad" kind in that thread's view, okay fine whatever. But there seems to be a larger trend of "should X be Y" which is just a poor way of framing a discussion imo, I think we ought to aim higher than that when it comes to discussion!

joannekwan(ง ˙o˙)ว here to help~
Sep '22

Honestly there's so much nuance to a situation and it's totally dependent on everyone's individual story they're trying to tell that I've stopped replying to such threads altogether because it takes time that I'm short on. Because it's not a yes or no question LOL

DokiDokiTsuna
Sep '22

I feel like a lot of these threads get started because either (a) OP is simply looking for confirmation of a viewpoint they already hold, or (b) OP is just an amateur who's trying to learn what is and isn't acceptable in the world of writing. ^^;

I mean, when a lot of writing advice is presented as 'Top 10 Awful Disgusting Tropes That Will Automatically Make Your Story a Failure Simply By Virtue of Existing'...it doesn't surprise me that a lot of young writers get the idea that certain things are either 'allowed' or 'forbidden' in a story, with no room for nuance in between.
I mean, there are things that you shouldn't do as a writer, but very, VERY rarely do those things boil down to simply avoiding a whole entire character archetype or event. Like you said, pretty much anything can work if you make it work.

Personally, I like to take those topics as an opportunity to break down the 'binary thinking', and examine why some people feel things should be done just one way, or why people feel OTHER people are only doing things one way. ^^; There's no rule that says you have to reply with a yes or a no.

Lensing
Sep '22

Everything is possible and has also been done in story writing, art and music.
And the rules are never yes or no guidelines in any field but it´s always good to
know fundamentals, formulas or whatever you want to call it.

An experienced artist told me 7 years ago, learn the rules, forget the rules and
then create.
I understood this in a way that you want to figure out how someone created
a piece of art or a story and then create your own stuff using the tools that
feel right for you and the story. The more stories and ways to create stories
you know the better because it´s good to know a lot of options

Freemints30
Sep '22
2
DokiDokiTsuna

Honestly that writing advise issues hits the nail on the head.

Alot of new writers tend to take thier advise from online personalities. On surface level there isnt anything wrong with that. Free learning resources and information is always a good thing

But alot of the advise pushed up in the social media algorithms are more... personal bias rather than actual advise and 9/10 more to make the creator of the advise thread or video to look like a good person rather than actually help people.

I will always rember the brain let of a thread that said "dont write enemies to lover. Friends to lovers is a better romance" or something akin to that.

Which is...

Bruh I might as well say "don't write human X human. That makes your story boring. Nasty monster X human is the highest form of love".

It's a personal bias rather than advise.

I see it alot in genres looked down upon. Like writing a romance book advise can boil dont to "dont make romance a big part make (insert what the writer of advise likes here) more prominent"

"Dont use use that immature unsofisticated toilet humor ever" even thou that kind of jokes do appeal to people especially if done very well.

"X is too dark to ever have"

"Sex/violence should always be implied never shown cus-"

"Never use modern slang in dialogue EVER"

And so on and so on

Like...

It takes years to identify the ocean of bad advise from the nuggets of good. It's honestly good some people are asking questions to grow out of that kind of thinking from people with more experience

aqua03Party Planner
Sep '22
DokiDokiTsuna

Ex-freeking-actly! I've struggled with that ever since I tried working on my stuff back in the day and I still struggle with it a lot. Not helped by the fact I watched a lot of comedy critics and mroe serious critics, so I always got this vibe that I needed to avoid most every trope or cliche to make something amazing. Doesn't help that I was big into "Cultural Critics" of both sides, so it also felt like I needed to avoid a lot of tropes or less I'd be labeled as an "SJW type" or a "Problematic guy" if that makes sense. Just that general algorithim "Don't do this or you are literally worse than every bad person ever!" type of stuff really hurt me a lot and is something I'm still struggling with. Because at the end of the day, you really can;t please everyone.

ratscout
Sep '22

I 100% agree. XD I think we need to ban the word "trope." because people think when they are using any given trope that it makes a story bad because the word kinda has negative connotations. But guess what, most stories are made up of tropes, haha. Anyway, I always say that anything can work in a story. It just depends on how it's done. A lot of people on Tapas are really picky and volatile, though. It's kinda like, if there is any hint of a trope they don't like, they take it personally, hahaha. I like both tragic villains and villains who are just villains for the sake of being villains.

Junohugger
Sep '22
aqua03

That's a good way to sum it up. Raw Cinemasins energy, I can't stand it. Reminds me of that huge Twitter thread of horrific "writing tips" that went viral for being exactly that kind of shallow, taste based "advice". But hey, it draws eyes and clicks and arguments, doesn't it :wink:

Junohugger
Sep '22
ratscout

You know what, I feel like boss mode in making villains is have one of each, and then make them fight one another :sunglasses:

Awesomeness_Studios
Sep '22
1

On days like these, I feel great about making goofy-ahh gaming comic with my little silly jokes and my silly little tropes. People can't tell me I'm "doing it wrong" anymore bc that's the point. /srs

EDIT: I really wonder if one day someone unironically tries to approach me to tell me I'm doing it wrong bc of those things. The most I've gotten was "it's too fast for me" and yknow what I gueeeesss that's a valid concern but everyone else is good with the fast pacing so I'm leaving it like that.