Bite-Size 2.0: A Creator Discussion and Advice Thread

[joannekwan]

Mass appeal is a tricky thing for me. Sure I'd LOVE to have the widest mass appeal possible for my stories, but I know I can't possibly do that especially if the things I'm working on are a labor of love. I just can't get passionate about something that I know will appeal to the masses unless it's a guaranteed money-maker and I've got a contract signed to secure that income. I personally already have niche-y tastes and that reflects in my passion projects.

My niches for my most current project: historical fantasy, monster loving/teratophilia/exophilia, may-december relationships, erotica.

lol I try to incorporate my niches into marketing, but even without the niche it's hard.
Tumblr: Fantastic! Throw your niche's tags into your post, people will find it!
Instagram: Sort of? Some of the tags don't have that much content and I don't know how many people search for said tags on insta.
Twitter: What even. You mean I have to actively search for communities that may or may not have tags they use? I have to interact? But I need this time to actually get work done! I hate this site. lol

Too niche? Yeah I think it's possible. There are some uniquely minded individuals on this earth. I'm sure some of them can produce something very few people or any at all can relate to.

[nathanKmcwilliams]

I don't know for sure about the mass appeal question xD I'm pretty aware that my comic is never going to check any boxes for mass appeal, so I'm not too worried about it. I'm fine with however many people end up liking it.

• I guess I do a more 'retro' style comic that is a throwback to the Silver Age of comics, 80s and 90s action cartoons, and early 00s Shonen comics. So my influences are varied, but I think I do well enough in making it a good combination.

I also have an anthromorphic main character, so I guess I could fall into the 'furry\scaly' niche, but...not by choice. That would be something people assume by assimilation. I...really just have animal based characters, because that's what I grew up with, (TMNT, Street Sharks, Duck Tales...etc)and I like designing them.

• I'm bad at marketing, and even worse with identifying with any niche, so not really. I just try to put it out there and hope people like it.

•Sure? I'm not really sure what to say xD

[UrMom]

Ooo I love niche content!

• Nah, for the most part not really. Sometimes I think about how things would be if I made a story more appealing to the masses, like if I would actually be able to make income off it, if people would recommend it like they do with other stories. Although if I dropped what I did for something of mass appeal than it wouldn't be mine, thus I would probably immediately lose interest, and drawing the comic would become a complete chore. I would rather stay niche than possibly lose my love for one of the few things I'm decent at.

• My comic's niche is psychological drama, character study, centered on heavy themes, long form slice-of-life story with no fantastical elements or romance. It's also intentionally uncomfortable and/or upsetting to read (although for some it is very uninteresting.), it's a big hurt/comfort story with the 'hurt' getting more screen time than the comfort.
  I'm not sure how many novels have the same or similar story types, but I know like %99 of webcomics aren't anything like my comic, in all my time reading I've only found two. Drop-Out being the closest like mine.

• Sort of? I'm trying, but it's in a rather weird spot for me give it's in an awkward position between drama and horror. The comic is meant to be a form of catharsis for people who've been through abuse, or people with serious mental illnesses like depression, but there is a veeery small percentage of people like me who would find that stuff cathartic. Luckily I've recently found creators like me on Twitter, and I've been studying how they market and who they market to, but I'm still learning.
  Either way I must be doing something right since people actually like it, and are actively keeping up with it.

• Totally! You can have something that literally only about 5 people will like, usually it's weird porn, but too niche is very possible. In the indie scene creators usually just want to make something they want to see more in stories, and sometimes their taste is just too out there for everyone else, but if they're happy with it then that's all that matters.

[darthmongoose]

All right,, Niche discussion...

• Yeah, as much as I like to think of my comic as "something I'm doing for me", part of what spurred me to make it was seeing the wide acceptance of stuff like Steven Universe, The Lumberjanes and the new She-Ra cartoon. Works made by queer women that have a similar vibe to my work in style, tone and content that got huge widespread popularity. Having had a career struggling to find a place, it sort of felt like it was finally the "right time" for my kind of work, but it's still always going to be a struggle to get seen, and Tapas is so dominated by stories about male-male romance, it's sometimes like.... "Is my mostly female cast action comic out of place here?" and "Were those series actually just flukes, maybe it was just good marketing and other people aren't all as desperate for that kind of content as me?" But... well, I'll keep trying and see how this goes, I guess!

• I've used a lot of things as a marketing tool, but I've often found that actually a lot of people are more put off by it when I put forward things like the LGBTQIA+ themes, female creator etc. I think it makes them think it's gonna be this badly-written and drawn "zine" like thing where really aggressively ugly characters talk about nothing but Social Justice and how men are trash or something? They're more likely to pick up my work if I just show them the art and tell them it's an exciting action comic! And that's fine, I guess. Most of them surprisingly don't put the comic down when between the monster punching it turns out to be about social justice, women, feelings and and gay stuff, so good on them!

• I have definitely seen people whose work hits a popularity ceiling that's created exactly by their niche. I think what I'd call a comic that's "too niche" is one where the niche is very overbearing, like every joke is about a certain niche interest or fetish, or every page is drawn to really target a very specific sort of audience. If that niche audience is big enough and you can find enough of it, you can make a fine career for yourself with a super-niche work, but when you hyper-optimise for a niche, you make work that nobody else can really vibe with.
  I don't want to be like the LGBTQ+ action comics I used to see on tables at cons, where all the characters wear bulgy hotpants and tanktops with rainbows on and they're all pouting all the time and they're like.... superheroes whose powers come from being gay and they have like... magical bondage gear or something. Nobody can enjoy that unless they're very into that "scene", so it might have a very dedicated audience, but it's a small audience. It's not that it can't or shouldn't exist, but it might be too niche to be financially viable because comics are a medium loved by introverts and that scene is dominated by very extroverted people and loud events.

[rajillustration]

Hello, hello, it's the first time I've been on the new thread so I'll just say my name real fast as introduction since that's how we're doing it here, I'm Rachel--raj is just my initials--she/her, fantasy enthusiast, illustrator, comic maker.

so on with the daily discussion, which is about niches.

1. TBH I see niche interpreted different ways. To me it's more about varied interests, but on here it's more about genre and artstyle. So, as far as my comic goes my genre is fantasy, so I'm hardly niche there, but I make up for it by having an art style and a way of storytelling that is unique for tapas. I wouldn't say it's niche to the world of comics in general, but for tapas? Apparently it is, that's what people keep telling me.
2. So as far as interests go I love crafting, cooking, video games, indie music, certain shows, books, and fandoms--but as far as like...niche genres go...I don't really think about it. I guess I wrote two comics based on lesser known video games at one time, and I also wrote an anthro comic...but it wasn't because I was trying to get into a niche genre or because I consider myself "part" of the genre--they just happened to be that way. There's a lot of niches out there that have rules on how you're supposed to write, and I just don't have the time to bother with all that discourse, youknow? I'm not a fan of the gate keeping nearly every niche has, so I just try to stay out of it, and just write what I write without offending somebody.
3. I think your interests always become a part of your marketing. There's really no other way to market. If your comic or novel has a niche in it, stick it in the tag, why not? No one's sending you to jail for not being niche enough. (well...some might be very upset if their niche isn't depicted in exactly the way they want it to be but this is why we have a block button, because again--gatekeeping can be real a mess online)
4. I do think it's possible to be too niche but I think it's just very hard. It's like taking too much vitamin A. Yeah, people HAVE done this, but...probably no one here. Like speaking as a person who was once trying to research netting patterns for my history of crafting blog to keep the art of netting alive--it's really hard to find a niche that has no audience. (also, try netting, it's a fun craft)

[CodeMonkeyArts]

1. Yes, I do. I don't think my story really appeals to the mass public due to a lot of the themes and the premise itself. Yes, superheroes and supervillains are big and yes there was (is?) a big craze of BDSM style romance. However, I don't know if the combination of the two helps the story sell. Add to the fact that this is a DARK story and deals with really hard issues, has graphic violence and graphic sexual depictions...well...it's a little rough. You'd have to be a fan of Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty, Fifty Shades of Grey, The Killing Joke, Stalker films, etc, to really wanna get into it. But who knows, maybe a lot of people like it :D.

2. SuperVillains/SuperHeroes, Romance, BDSM, Horror, Drama, Mystery...And that's for Birth of a Sin! I have another idea cooking for a Paranormal, Steampunk, Horror, Romance story with vampires, werewolves, witches, and Tezcatlipoca!

3. I try to, though for Twitter and Instagram I aim to push the art forward first to try and get an appeal. Also I use some hashtags that I know have dedicated folks looking for it. @joannekwan I have to ask if you still recommend tumblr. I am thinking about fully jumping ship from DA and looking into another place to post content...even though I have four already cries

4. I think that there is an added difficulty of being too niche. You need to have skill to support your story and make it stand out on merit instead of wide appeal. By being too mainstream you start to meld into the deluge of 'What's the next Twilight, Harry Potter, 50 Shades, Hunger Games, insert title here'; by being too niche, you don't have a wide audience to appeal too. So you need to write well and passionately. I look at Agatha Christie and Stephen King as great examples. I mean Stephen King made a fucking child-eating dimensional alien from space who disguises itself as a god-damn clown a SELLABLE concept and that's with a really creepy sex scene in the book! So there is hope somewhere!

[joannekwan]

I have to ask if you still recommend tumblr. I am thinking about fully jumping ship from DA and looking into another place to post content

I still recommend it. While the user-base has decreased without a doubt, and things don't explode like they used to, I'm still getting some eyes on my work. And funnily enough, every day I'll get a couple notes on some really old work that were posted years ago, so the tagging system is definitely still working.
As far as nsfw goes, one can definitely post censored versions and simply direct people to a site where the uncensored image lies.

[Jenny-Toons]

Hmm, as far as mass appeal goes, I'm generally pleased with whatever results I get, you know? Like right now, I'm at a good point with my work. I have an active audience asking questions, they're generally excited about my plots, and they look forward to the updates.

Granted, what I do really isn't mainstream, which ties into the next question. I work with a lot of sub-genre horror, (cosmic horror romance, paranormal romance, and folk horror currently). These are very niche markets, as far as mainstream stuff goes. Hell, we barely have a lot of monster romance movies that aren't just vampires and werewolves. But I think what kinda helps me is having a not-so niche art-style. I also do a lot of bonus content that's light-hearted and have inside jokes that most people can get behind.

Truthfully, I don't think something can be too niche. But I do think something can be too cut-off. Lot of the times, the reason things don't get popular isn't because it's "not good content". It's because it doesn't really sell itself to that bigger audience. It doesn't try to connect with them. I work in cosmic horror romance with Our Universe, but many of my readers normally read mainstream romance comics. What reeled them in? The relationship between Brenda and {REDACTED}. The love is real between them, and the stakes are high -- just in a different way. And I did it in a way that allows room for wholesome vibes between the horror. As a result, people kinda like my work, and they tell me they look at other cosmic horror content because of my work.

If you can sell it and sell it well, people will buy. It's just a matter of how you go about that.

[CodeMonkeyArts]

Well I think I'll go back to check it out then XD

[KRWright]

New topic for today!!! A somewhat controversial one, but today's topic is intimidation.

For me, I've found that people do get intimidated by me and I'm like: Why? I'm a big dumb gay who writes about other big dumb gays. I am not scary. But then, I also find myself creeping over to large creators being like "I am just a humble bug who is not worthy". So I do think this is something to explore.

[DualDragons]

((So do you need to introduce yourself or can you just join the discussion and leave your thoughts if you want to?

[KRWright]

((So do you need to introduce yourself or can you just join the discussion and leave your thoughts if you want to?

Introduce yourself and jump right in!

[DualDragons]

((Ok

Preferred name: Dual or Cesar
Pronouns: He/Him
Genres you create: Action and Fantasy at the moment
Writing journey: I'm currently doing my first comic and writing my future project. Currently I'm also trying to get back my pride in comic-making (short term goal)

---

• For networking I usually check out things that I'm interested in. I also leave comments to interact with the author if I find their work especially interesting. In this case I could also find them on the forums. Some of them might also take interest in me and see if I do stuff myself. This way, there is a case of mutual interest between me and creators, and a opportunity to network with each other.
• I think I have rarely been intimidated by other writers. Envious maybe, but not really intimidated.

[darthmongoose]

Time to roll an intimidation check!

• I have people I've been friends with through comics for 15+ years now, and I'm actually engaged to somebody I met on a forum for UK comics creators. My approach is to just jump in and to try to be helpful. I often see people making the mistake of just trying to suck up to creators who have done well for themselves and milk them for free advice or exposure, but I think the really lasting relationships come from being helpful. Give people advice, even if they're currently nothing special, even if they're teenagers making their first wobbly steps into drawing comics. I once upon a time gave advice to a teenage newbie comic creator who needed help with layout ideas for her cover. Now she draws Buuza! A pretty popular comic on this site and she's an award-winning rising star in the comics scene. We're still friends and we play D&D together. People on the UK scene from back in the day knew me as the person who'd always jump in with advice for newbies, and always be the person who'd happily mind your table at a con if you needed a loo and tea break. It made me a lot of good friends who helped me out with gigs and exposure later.

• For better or worse... no, I'm not. I will treat any comic creator as if they're my peer, even if I have huge respect for them. I'm always genuine with my compliments and I try to respect and compliment anyone who's worked hard on a comic and give them attention. Some people really don't like this because I'm just like... Some random country bumpkin who has been published a couple of times, not in anything huge, and they think it's arrogant of me to act like we're on the same level, but a lot of comics creators are super-chill and don't really think of themselves as big names or famous. If you act like you're a peer to the top people instead of a fan, you will get taken more seriously in publishing, especially if you have friends who are up there who'll treat you like a peer.

• My advice is just to try talking to them really. They're just ordinary people and they usually also have problems we can all relate to like imposter syndrome or dealing with nerves or trying to balance writing and other areas of their lives. Some of the most famous people in comics are actually really chill or even quite shy!

[ryoko]

Over the past few years, I've found the best way to get to know other creators and to network is to participate in art trades, guest art and interact with them on the forums. Having similar interests and goals, reading other creator's series and having authentic discussions are all ways I've tried to build lasting relationships.

I am an introvert, shy and intimidated by people in general in daily life, so yes, I am intimidated by other creators, but it's not because they are doing anything wrong or that they are unkind, it just takes a lot of time for me to get comfortable interacting with people until I know who they are.

Overcoming this is a continuous process and uploading my series here and interacting with other creators here on the forum has actually helped me in my daily life. Even replying to this advice thread is something I may not have done in the past, but I recognize a lot of the creators now and feel less intimidated by them.

[nathanKmcwilliams]

Intimidated? Heck yes. But I still try to wade in with the big dogs and do my best.

•Well...it wasn't until I came to Tapas that I even tried to interact with other artists. So I just post my art here, and interact with everyone I can. Also I joined an RP, which helped immensely to feel more comfortable around my peers.

•Not by writers so much, but other artists? Definitely. Especially painters, and artists with realistic styles. To be brutally honest, I consider my art to be...barely passable, especially side by side with artists that have formal training. It makes me feel so inadequate xD.
But recently, people have mentioned (very nice) things about my art that I never thought would come up. And now...I'M AN INTIMIDATOR?! why? I'm just a cartoonist who guesses at 90% of his work.
Not saying all that to dump on myself, it's just the feeling I have in the back of my mind at all times.

•The only way I did it was to stop wondering if I might stand with the greats, and just do what I could. Just because I'm not formally trained, doesn't mean I can't make it. BUT if I never tried, then...I would never know. Just go out there, do your best, and forget everyone else, stay true to yourself. Just do it.

[ratscout]

• A lot of the people who I consider long-time friends on this site are people who read one of my stories the whole way through, I read theirs in return, I decided I really liked theirs, and we just became good chums through that. I don't know, it really helps when you build relationships without the intention of using people, too. I don't expect anyone I consider a friend on this site to shamelessly advertise for me, and I don't befriend people with the intention of making them help me get more subs.

• Nah. Sometimes I'm a bit jealous, but never intimidated. Some of the popular writers on this site... Don't write things that appeal to me one bit, so there's just no need for me to be intimidated. The popular writers who do write the things I'm interested in I'm already kinda chummy with, so there's no reason to be intimidated by them. If the guy who wrote the Iliad suddenly rose from the grave and I really wanted his autograph, THEN I'd be intimidated. XD

• My advice to anyone who wants to be friendly with bigger creators is just to consistently comment on their stuff if you really like it. It's the best way to show your appreciation of what they do, and the creator will get excited everytime they see you commenting, especially if it's something meaningful about how good the writer is at their craft, like, "I really loved how you described this! It painted a really clear image in my head!" and stuff like that. You should also go in with the intention that you just want to support their work rather than trying to get something out of them. <3

[Iris-Grimoire]

• Participating on discussions and sharing works, just like being in this very forum, to be honest. It's a bit hard to make the call to talk in non art/comic situations, so it's usually forums, twitter threads, anime cons, places where I can start at the subject and not have my own anxiety stop me.
• All the time. I know I could probably go up to some big name creator and talk and have a great time, but it's a costant fight to even go 'very well done!' on their work and not feel like I'm phoning it in. It's the looming self doubt that I must only be doing this to get higher up in the ladder, even if I want to make genuine friends - but it's all my attempts at socialization and not just creators in specific.
• It's hard to say fully overcoming because it's still hard, but it does get easier if you try. That 'very well done!' sounds silly and brief, but saying that now is how you can carry a conversation with someone later on. Just like art/writing is better finished than perfect, so are social interactions, and people don't notice as much as you do on yourself (like stuttering, mispelling words, or saying thanks twice).

[Jenny-Toons]

Similar to other people, I've join several discords and connected with other creators through those. I've made some connections via the forums as well, and that has definitely resulted in a few collaborations. But most of my interactions have been from discord. And it's just fun stuff -- memes, gushing over each other's art, gushing over fandom stuff, every day life. Even had a few meet ups.

With that in mind, I'm not really intimidated by other creators, even if they do have larger audiences. Having made friends with other artists and met them in person, both featured or otherwise, I know what they're human just like me. They've got their concerns, their aspirations, their desires. Honestly, all I ever feel when I see a big-name is admiration. They might not have everything figured out, but they're doing well for themselves, and that's awesome.

I feel like once you've made those deep connections with other artists, big and small, and have seen things from their angle a bit, any feelings of intimidation go away. Or maybe it was never even there, and you don't even consider it because...well, why should you?

I don't mind healthy competition and playful rivalry though -- I think if we see someone who's doing well and are motivated to get to that level and improve, that's pretty awesome.

[joannekwan]

Networking: The biggest boon to my networking have definitely been discord servers! They're fun and you get to know other creators on a more down-to-earth level and don't have a wall of their work separating you from them. Like, a discord is not just about people's work and are more about the creative process or just hanging out and chatting about things depending on the server. I'm super glad to have met a whole bunch of people through the various servers I'm in.

I don't think I'm ever intimidated. But I'll never make first contact with a 'big name' since I don't know if they're overwhelmed by messages or if they're even comfortable with messages out of the blue. Though I'm more likely to interact with a 'big name' if I see them engaging with 'smaller' folks like me. Which is another reason I like discord servers, people jump in and out of convos all the time and it can be very casual.