Can a villain do this?

darthmongoose 2019-10-21 15:54:02 UTC #21

I have no intention of saying that the privilege of the creator is the problem here. It would be a problematic trope even if it was done by a gay person in this case (there were, after all, plenty of LGBTQIA+ people working on Dragon Age Inquisition). The problem isn't the status of the person telling the story, but the oversimplification of a complex issue to make it more palatable by taking any sense of responsibility away from the audience. Misrepresenting prejudice not as something widespread that can only be tackled through social change and education in the broader populace, but something that's enacted by a handful of villains who should be overcome, while everyone else is innocent.

AceRagz 2019-10-21 16:02:14 UTC #22

I understand what you are saying and it is a solid point don't get me wrong on that. I just have a disagreement with saying someone is privileged without really knowing anything about them. I think it is a faulty point since it is based off assumptions on the internet and even irl.

DavidPerry 2019-10-21 16:04:42 UTC #23

I don't think there's much I consider off limits for a villain. Don't soften them out of concern for the audience. But also make sure that whatever it is that they're saying or doing has a narrative purpose. If the bad guy is going to spout the N-word, there needs to be a reason for it. Maybe he's a racist, maybe she's black and its been normalized in her community, maybe the protagonist is a socially conscious person and the villain knows it'll get to them.

No matter what, there should be a narrative purpose. Never do it just for shock value or it'll fall flat and needlessly offensive. And more important than that, even--make us sympathetic to them in some way. No one is all that entertained by a willfully, consciously evil antagonist. They need to have reasons for their actions that we can at least somewhat understand, even if we wouldn't do it ourselves. Make them convincing, which is part of that "narrative purpose."

CodeMonkeyArts 2019-10-21 16:30:10 UTC #24

No. No we don't.

I certainly don't believe we do. Especially for a villain. In some works with an appropriate setting, I think that it even could be used by the hero (especially if said hero is black for N-word, or homosexual for f**).

Context certainly helps and it would be good if the hero is very straight-laced or good hearted and doesn't use those terms. But it's necessary to punish or explain it. Especially when it's the villain.

This is sort parodied a little in Nostalgia Critics' review of Blade 2:

"I just wanted you to HATE the guy! Do you!?"

"Well...yeah..."

"Then shut the hell up and enjoy the movie!"

silacinnamon 2019-10-21 16:37:43 UTC #25

I agree with what other people said that villains are expected to do bad things, but making them do specific things just to show that they're Bad can oversimplify the problem.

But in the case you explained I think the problem isn't just the actions of the villain, this is what can make the readers feel more uncomfortable than just seeing a bad character saying a bad word:

Maybe some people can misinterpret it, but I actually think that making the villain do bad things casually and go unpunished can be a good way to show that the problem isn't just Bad People doing Bad Things. You can show that neutral (or even good) characters tolerating prejudice are a part of the problem too. Of course, it depends on the context and how you develop the subject later...

machimaquiaveli 2019-10-21 17:15:23 UTC #26

I agree that there are few things a villain can't do, unless you want to redeem them. If later in the story you pretend to turn around the bad guy then choose wisely what bad things he does because there are things we as readers will never forget. Also, you must be careful between a bad guy and an anti-hero that is present as the bad guy bc he is oposing the actual regime/goverment although they are real monsters.

Also, if you are going to add certain themes to the story make sure is treaty with respect. The bad guy can still do bad things but, what about the rest of the society? Do they support them? Condone them? Don't even know they exist?

BlueWorldComics 2019-10-21 22:54:59 UTC #27

You're not the only one that answered the question this way, so let me clarify further...

I'm not asking for permission, and I'm not asking if it makes sense to do in a story with an evil character.

A lot of you are looking at it strictly from a character/story perspective, not an authorial responsibility perspective. I'm going META here.

In a hypothetical scenario where my story was popular, there will no doubt be people from marginalized communities reading it. Would it make sense to have a villainous character exhibit disparaging behavior toward those communities directly, but more frequently indirectly (e.g. calling his henchmen F**gots without actually considering their sexual orientations) as a casual personality quirk WITHOUT calling attention to how wrong it is?

Is it my responsibility as an author to acknowledge the bad behavior as bad, or does the villain being the villain allow me to get away with it inherently?

joannekwan 2019-10-21 23:04:19 UTC #29

David Perry said it best earlier.

DokiDokiTsuna 2019-10-22 00:38:14 UTC #30

Seeeee a lot of people have already commented on and expanded on that point, so...I feel like this is a kind of a late reply...

But if you really need me to say it, the general consensus is that if you're gonna do things like that it should be for a reason (cultural context/time period, priorities of the villain in question, etc.) not as a 'casual personality quirk'. Bigotry isn't really a quirk, and shouldn't be treated as such.

And on that note, I'm pretty sure the consensus is "no". As others have said, you're free to respond and explain yourself to any reader who questions your moral standing for including slurs and taboos in your story, but it's not your job to prevent any such misunderstandings.

Honestly, if you're even considering this line of thought, I think your target audience is more or less old and mature enough to deserve a little credit on their powers of discretion. That was basically my original point: More often than not, they'll get it, so it's nothing to worry about.

GabiWolf 2019-10-22 01:12:23 UTC #31

It’s not your job to say “hey thats bad, and thats why the villain is doing that”, however like someone mentioned before it would be good to label triggers, so people who don’t want to see or read that kind of stuff can avoid it.

Also as others said it’s a complex topic, that doesn’t just boil down to a few words. Slurs are hurtful because they dehumanizing or dismiss people, but everyday speech can do that too. If there is reason and purpose behind it, then it’s fine, but if you go in without warnings and with only a few “buzz” word then some people might question it. However at that point it is still not your responsibility to explain yourself. Most of the time you would be wasting time and energy because any reader that is mad enough to comment their dislike has already made up their mind about you. It’s a story some people won’t like it, some will, thats with any story.

But I can name a whole lot of racial slurs that I have been called or that my dad has been called that are not the n word. And the most hurtful thing I have heard time and time again about my sexuality is a backhanded complement.

Language is complex, and in the modern world where it is widely taboo to say certain things people have adapted their speech to reflect their hate in ways that are less obvious, and yes they get away with it unpunished. Either due to people not really understanding the meaning behind the phrase or out of shock or fear of violence.

Larslaustsen 2019-10-22 07:16:57 UTC #32

Can the Joker do all this?

droidmonkey1 2019-10-22 07:57:10 UTC #33

If your villain character is evil because of pure evil and no horrific origin story, I think you can do it.
look around you in our reality there are people who do those things and they are not punish or it took a long time.
As long as the reader understands that it just the villain character and not your personal thoughts.

Darkstrong 2019-10-22 08:11:56 UTC #34

Well, a character, any character can do anything if it serves the story. A hero or a villain is just a matter of perspective. Your main hero can be a bigoted bastard, too, and it will be no more or less appropriate if it fits the story you are telling. But simply being mean to any person or group of people, doesn't make someone a villain, opposing the hero point of view does. So, if that behavior is necessary to for your villain to be a good foil for your hero, then why not, if you just try to add it for its shock value and to make your villain more despicable for the hell of it - this kind of writing never went right with me.
As for someone in the room objecting to such behavior, just to show the You specifically don't condone it and no other reason at all, that is even worse, I think =)

MirandaDrawss 2019-10-22 16:27:00 UTC #35

I feel like it would be acceptable, seeing it's the villain, but I do still think some thought needs to be put into it so it's not overdone. I think of it like I think of gratuitous sex or violence in a movie that isn't specifically made to focus on those. If it adds to the character and is used properly, it could be a good touch. If you're just throwing things like that in solely to make the villain seem worse without actually making sense for his character to say those things, I don't think that's ok.

CodeMonkeyArts 2019-10-22 17:46:47 UTC #36

Hehe, well my vote is "Yes you can...Especially if you want people to HATE the guy."

Lamina 2019-10-25 04:15:27 UTC #37

If you can justify something in terms of the narrative then anything goes. As long as there are good artistic reasons for doing things no one sensible will object. It's all about the context.

Darth_Biomech 2019-10-30 18:56:11 UTC #38

If it fits their personality and the tone of the story, they should. It's the villain. The bad guy.

Freemints30 2019-10-31 00:11:59 UTC #39

I was reading a comic series called "the crossed". The main bad guys pretty much rape, torture and mutilate people including children(children off screen, thank goddness) on screen while saying horrendous things and some got away. That was not the issue. That was what the series was about and if some didnt like because its for them being "Toooo evil" then that's their problem. I dont think any thing to be off limits its very stupid.

However the main problem was that every thing else about the work other than art was shit. The villains at times were sooo overpowered that I pretty much firmly can say they have plot Armour. The characters we follow with few exception got boring, annoying to follow. I just got bored once the shock factor wore off and I dreaded seeing the crossed because of not what they do, but because they just seem boringly invincible.

The manga Wolfmund is a much better example, the main bad guy is pure evil "Physical and emotional torturer" and he seems to get away with a shit ton of stuff. But we the gradually builds up on his weak points and had an interesting cast to face off against him.

What Im saying is, nothing should be off limits. Just write your foundation well, and everything will be smooth sailing. Villan sues are a thing so watch out.