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Oct 2020

@jcmraz and @Van I get the feeling that it's mostly from threads that are like "why is X popular" or "I wish there was less X on the front page" kinds of threads. But I can't speak for the people that do find this forum hostile. Though clearly some do just from the talk I hear on discords and what I hear about twitter every so often.

I will admit some of us maybe more sensitive to these things than others. Not in a good or bad way, just a some people are more sensitive to some things way in the same way I'm sure there are some things I would over look that other people notice more. And when you're aware of something you notice it more and it bugs you more. And perhaps I am more aware of it because I have seen how quickly and easily these things can descend from petty complaints and underlying hostility to outright toxicity. And there certainly are people who seem outright hostile, even if they are in the minority of course. But as the saying goes, one bad apple can spoil the entire batch. And we all know the a loud minority of people can make entire groups seem a certain way. When these things aren't dealt with, it becomes something that people think is ok. If one person is hostile (or even seems hostile) to works/creators because they're popular and is supported/agreed with, more people think it's an ok stance to take or that that is the stance of the community.

I made this thread at this specific time because I had just seen one such post saying popular works don't have any effort put into them. I noticed something, I made a thread addressing the things I have seen and how I feel. If other people haven't noticed it as much or don't feel the same, that's a matter of perspective. We all interact with things differently and are more sensitive to different things.

I mean, I would like to see better genre representation or a way to personalize the genre lists on the front page too. I don't think this is a way of tearing people down but wondering why only certain types are being lifted up. I would love to be able to select "fantasy/scifi" as my genre interest and be shown top and best in genre right on the front page without having to go looking. Or to see an easy selection menu showing the top of each major genre or something. The front page doesn't have anything that ever interests me so I don't bother looking at it. Good for the people there but it reduces access to my readership to genres that I might actually have interest in

Which is usually the point people are making about that front wall. It's a literally barrier for trying to get people to subscribe to individual creator's titles that aren't like those very similar bricks it's built of.

Even if I can convince someone through my social media to subscribe to our groups series, they frequently tell me they get wore out with all the Tapas promotions and messages about titles that don't reflect their reading habits on site...they're just still pushing the wall.

Even the most basic porn sites do a better job of filtering your interests and stop recommending stuff you don't watch.

And this isn't "complaining", this a creator who watched the American Big Two and brick and mortar comics choke themselves to death slowly by NOT trying to appeal to other demographics.

It's a cautionary tale.

The Real Enemy is the algorithm and the predatory way this website is set up — the popularization of infinite scroll, the very niche category divisions...

Webtoon and Tapas are deliberately farming you and your readers for clicks. As many clicks as possible, as fast as possible. You are being consciously and purposefully funneled toward content that is fast and easy to make, and fast and easy to read.

Don’t blame your fellow authors or readers. Blame the website creators - and you can bet they hired trained marketing experts and even psychologists to invent the most efficient way to turn your time into their money.

This isn’t even an exaggeration, FYI. I majored in psychology and I have experience working as an intern at a marketing firm. Both positions are hired OFTEN by big corporations, and it pays well, too. These companies are spending big money for professionals to help them manipulate you into generating money for them.

A few people make a good point, while I hate the negative and uh...less constructive pov i see sometimes, all me referred comics are romance or bl. Unless its telling me to read something i subscribed to. All the pages seem to favor romance, which is weird. A "what genre do you like" type format that suggests based on what the USER tells it would be so much better than "this is the genre most people like. read it."

I dunno. I don’t feel on the novel side Romance is front and center.

For Novels, tapas opens on Fantasy, bringing up The Beginning After the End.

I also find the system where I just pick genre, then go to fresh easy. Sure, I can see that anime style prevails on the top page, but tbh, it doesn’t make me feel unwelcome, because I like bright fantasy, adventure and romance.

I would have been put off far more if the front page showed a lot of grimy horror covers or other dark or scary/unpleasant stuff.

I do greatly miss sci-fi, but I just came to live with the fact that sci-fi that I like (I.e. corny space opera vs dystopian) is not a popular genre on the Internet, and I know where I will find it.

What are these spicy discords everyone's talking about??? The ones I'm on are very low key with a few comments every week or are just a bunch of 12 year olds throwing memes and promos at eachother. And I follow quite a few.

28 days later

A lot of what you said applies to why I stop streaming as well. Other content creators became so toxic toward eachother.

Everyone has said some really potent things but yeah, I agree that hating on other creators for being successful is getting really old. Certain things are popular on Tapas and elsewhere for a reason. It's ok not to like those things and even criticize them, but saying creators don't deserve success is a sign of jealousy. Even among us smaller creators, if you're toxic towards others for gaining traction - you won't win many friends that way!

3 months later

I'm new here but I agreed. We shouldn't complain about popular creator. They work hard to get there where their at.

Yeah, it doesn't help to complain, compare your works to others, or put anyone down, because there are SO many things that contribute to what you might consider a level of success. Every site you work with is different, every fan base is different, and every creator is different. A million factors go into becoming a popular ANYTHING.

Sometime dedication and grind get you where you want to be, and sometimes you just get lucky. It might be the readers who notice your talent and help you grow, or the site/a company. There is no hard fast rule. Even 2 stories that are very similar might experience varying rates of success.
Just like 2 books written by the same author/artists might vary.

I'm a premium author and not everything I write gets accepted by Tapas, or even if it does it isn't guaranteed to be successful or gain popularity. But I tend to focus on what I love and on doing my best with each project. If it doesn't gain traction, you just try again. Or you don't give up on the project and you try it somewhere else.

That's why I always say you should write what you like and not worry too much about where it will get you. And I know that sounds generic, because everyone says that. But for the sake of your own happiness, it's the best way to create. Otherwise you will get stuck putting yourself or others down, and you'll feel stressed about when or how you can be successful. When in reality, popularity is never promised to anyone.

I did a bunch of creative writing courses in uni (I majored in science, but writing was more of my interest) and I remember this one particular class where EVERYTHING circled back to "Twilight bad". Now, don't get me wrong, there's some harmful messaging in Twilight that should be deconstructed, and there's definitely writing and narrative flaws that could be discussed, but EVERY. SINGLE. LECTURE. could not pass by without at least one mention of "lol Twilight" from either the prof (a published author) or the other students. And you could SEE each and every person on the "Twilight bad" train doing the mental calculation - I'm better at this than the author, I'm better at that, why does she get published and paid? And at some point in time, I was just like, man... Jealousy over financial success is an ugly thing.

I realized a long time ago that the quality of your work has almost nothing to do with financial success. There's absolute DOGSH-- stuff raking in millions every day, and then there's absolute lovingly-crafted gems of mental brilliance that nobody's ever heard of. Why? Because your average consumer doesn't care about quality. They don't care about subtle subtext or cleverly placed clues or brilliant existential treatise, they just want to read the same story over and over and over again that will make them forget a long day at a job/school they hate.

Sometimes the stuff that catches on happens to strike the right level of quality vs. mass appeal and it blows up. Sometimes it's just luck. Either way, the person who made it undoubtedly, at the very least, approached this project with a whole lot of perseverance and discipline, even if academically-speaking, the end product was mediocre at best (and sometimes it's actually pretty good! But that is not why it was wildly successful). The sooner your divorce popularity from quality (and by extension, a way to evaluate the quality of your own work), the happier you'll be.

that brings an interesting point for any creative work......About accesibility and depth. I mean, accesibility more in terms of appealing to "casual" readers and depth to.....well, a meaningful story of good quality.

A really old example that aimed their story to the masses and the most educated circles was Don Quijote de la Mancha, by Miguel de Cervantes......On one side, it was a parody/deconstruction of chilvalry novels, but on the other side, it has loss of physical comedy and silly situations anyone could get a laugh of, which made it an iconic work that is referenced frequently.

Is that why there aren't many 'big' creators here on the forums? I figured it was just because they were busy, or focusing their social attention on, for example, their Patreon discords and such. (Which is perfectly reasonable, there are only so many hours in a day.)

But to hear that there used to be more on these forums, and that they were deterred from posting due to jealousy... well. Damn. What a wellspring of knowledge, advice, and potential friendship we've lost.

Jealousy impoverishes everything it touches.

There was some jealousy as well as them just leaving the site in general. Tapas changed a lot in 10 years, and so for some people (especially those who were able to get more success on their own sites or on Tapas and hiveworks) that was kind of the last straw and so when Tapas was no longer their moneymaker, they bounced. (and tbh as far as forums go, neither side is innocent in this case, I've been here like a year and I've seen some spicy fights that developed because people just could not read a room.)

But while the forums have been here a while, they are only recently being moderated more, since we got a lot more people on here from the downfall of both SmackJeeves and other writing forums. That extra moderation really helped get rid of a lot of that bickering nonsense (although there's still nonsense occasionally).

That and, being real, most of the threads on this forum are how-to's and beginning stuff. And I came here because I needed to learn how webcomics work in 2020, not necessarily to draw (I still feel a little shaky doing scroll format.) But if you are someone who can draw, and don't need to hear about what people want in modern webcomics...eh these forums might be boring for you.

Fair point. I can see how polished creators may become bored over time, especially if the threads began to get repetitive.

That said, while I'm not a beginner, I like it here because I've always enjoyed forums in general, this one has a really nice community, and it's active. I've been starved for this kind of online interaction. Twitter just doesn't cut it.

Since I'm at a more intermediate level as an artist, I suppose I've taken the approach of "what can I offer". (Which seems commonplace here, and is partly why I like this community so much! It's very reciprocal.) Maybe it's the teacher in me. I like helping. But that's also what I'm lamenting. To have dozens of established creators floating around doing that means better advice, well beyond what I can provide. (I could also stand to benefit from it. I can draw, but I'm a complete dunce at comic layouts.)

It's a shame, because once those people are gone, it's hard to get them back.

Good to know about the recently increased moderation, though! I'm glad I joined when I did, because unmoderated bickering would have put me off.

Agreed. I enjoy sharing what I've learned whenever I can too. The more we help each other, the better artists we'll all be, and that means more quality content. When we help each other out, we all win.

I think we should all be just a bit more tactful tbh regardless of what we think. I mean we are all creators here so I bet each of us is just beating ourselves down each moment we spot a mistake. Let's just chill a bit and be British about our likes and dislikes, I guess.