Can you use NSFW tags to promote equality?

[noxfox]

When I started to publish Singmire Haze, I knew that it would contain a certain amount of non-sexual nudity, and in my eyes, there was no reason to tag it as NSFW because it was just bodies being naked sometimes, and I saw nothing wrong in this. I didn't want to contributing to sexualizing the body. However, I put a warning at the start of the story to state there would be occasional nudity and possibly a bit of blood at times, defining what readers may find or not in advance to help them determine if they'd rather keep on reading or not.

Now that the App has been launched, in order to stick with platforms' G-rating policies, the tags had to be put. I personally find it a bit unnerving, when a story can be NSFW for more than one reason, not to know in advance if an episode is tagged for, say, sexual content (which I'm fine with) or gore (which I'm not fond of). That's why I decided to add this kind of warning at the beginning of NSFW pages:

I had noticed that @michaelson had put tags whenever the sex of a character could be seen, but also when female chest was exposed. That's when I figured I had an issue with this, because I did not want any unequal treatment like such, suggesting that female breasts are sexual and that male chest is not. Breasts are for feeding babies befoe anything. If some persons have a kink for breasts, it should be their problem. If we must start to put warnings on anything that might trigger people's kinky desires we'll end up putting them on shoes as well... Of course, just saying this won't change the G-rating policy. So I decided to just put warnings on all the chests of either sex:

I got warm feedback of my readers for this, and so I figured that maybe it would be worth sharing here. Has any of you done such a thing? Or have any similar idea to respect guidelines while respecting equality as well?

[keii4ii]

Tangent, but the icons you're using for those tags are borderline NSFW; I wish you'd chosen something safer. ^^;;

[noxfox]

Haha, yeah. I chose to do so because:
1. they're small
2. I still wanted to give an idea of what to expect

I suppose that if readers are bothered by the pictures in the warnings already, then they can easily figure that it's best for them not to keep on reading.

[UzukiCheverie]

Be warned, and this is JUST ME SPOUTING MY OWN NONSENSE, but when it comes to this sort of situation, I couldn't care less about "equality".

If I don't want Tapastic to get booted off the Apple servers with their iOS app, and if I don't want my younger siblings/any other kids coming across some of my more inappropriate pages without being properly warned, I will put NSFW. Bringing up all the stuff of "equality" and such is just trivial nonsense from my view, and doesn't serve the purpose of NSFW tags.

As I've said it millions of times before, NSFW is not censoring your art or trying to offend you for doing so, it is giving people the decision of whether or not they want to see something that may or may not be offensive to them. Whether or not YOU think it's culturally acceptable, may not stand the same for people with different opinions, from different countries/cultures/etc. In the end, it's really not about what you want or think, but about what kind of respect you have for your readers and the website that lets you post your content for free.

Just because something is marked NSFW doesn't mean they won't be able to read it. It just means they have to decide for themselves whether or not they want to see boobs or sexual content or anything else that would typically fall under the NSFW category. You think gender equality should be stressed? Then talk about that or try and raise awareness for it in other methods that isn't force-feeding people with stuff they'd probably rather have a choice in seeing.

So can you use NSFW tags to promote equality? Perhaps, but that's not what they're made for, and on a site where they're being watched by Apple "mods" to make sure their content is safe, aside from the general rules of respect for readers, you probably SHOULDN'T.

Basically all I can say is this - if you're so intent on wanting the whole gender equality part of it, make your own website and host your comics there, without NSFW warnings. At least then you're not putting another site at risk of losing their privileges or having to tighten their rules just because you wanted to be some kind of freedom fighter.

[ratique]

I remember reading your comic once and actually stumbling over a comment of one of you readers who had questioned why a certain episode was not marked NSFW. Your explanation made sense to me, not all nudity is sexual (male or female). But if I look at a comic at work and my boss walks up behind me, it does not matter if you (the creator) or me (the reader) think of it as something sexual or not. Your boss will form his/her own opinion based on a tiny glimpse of what he/her has seen. (Unless he simply fires me for reading comics instead of working).

So when posting a new page I always ask myself: If someone reads this at work, could he get in trouble for the content of this page? If yes, then it will be marked NSFW.

But that is just a side note. To your tags:
I think the idea is good, and the design of your tags is pretty. But when scrolling through your comic again, I felt like the tags interrupted the comic - very similar to how I feel when artists add big banners (Asking for likes/subs or support) to the bottom of their page. It takes something away from the immersion.

Another issue: If someone does not want to see NSFW content and has set their options that way, they are unable to see your tags. Which sucks, since those are the people that would want to be informed about the content of your page. A 10 year old might not want to see the gore on one of my pages, but is absolutely fine with your non-sexual nudity. But being unable to see your tags because of the filter, they won't know what is going on in your comic. (I am aware of your warning at the beginning of your comic. But let's say this type of NSFW tagging becomes more popular on tapastic, this is one of the down sides that have to be considered by those who want to use this system.)

Since the NSFW system is what we have right now and what we are probably going to use for a while until the Tapastic staff has time to make a clearer system, your Tags are a decent solution for those who find it important to create NSWF subclasses. It will be interesting to see if it catches on in the community.

[abbastudios]

NSFW is not censorship,nor is it a rating. It definitely is not a politcal statement.

NSFW stands for Not Safe For Work. Which means you should not open this up when you are at work, because a nude image may pop up at an inappropriate time. An employee or your boss may walk behind you and see it.

Laws against sexual harassment in the workplace are getting strict. A male may have a female co-worker that sits across from him with an open view of his monitor. She may feel harsssed by the constant parade of nudity on his monitor and feel it there to make her feel uncomfortable. However, right or wrong her conclusion or the judgement of the stray passerby, it is neant to protect the viewer from getting in a stcky situation. A situation that may get them written up or fired. NSFW is meant to protect the viewer by giving them notice that nudity may pop up on the screen that is inappropriate for a workplace environment.

That is it. Don't make it something it is not. No high horse or soapbox needed. Just be courteous to you reader and let them know, "Hey, you might want to check this out at home."

[scythe]

hmmmm, I think trying to use what's essentially a clarification label as a tool against a deeply ingrained, probably immutable factor of western society is a bit like trying to yell at a tsunami.

The simple fact is that girl's and women's breast are seen as sexual (as oppose to men's), and to say that their primary purpose is purely breastfeeding is, pardon me for saying so, a little ignorant of sexual biology. Their utility as a sexually attractive body part is, one might argue, just as important, and definitely more relevant to most people most of the time.

None of this is Tapastic's fault, who simply wish to conduct their business within the society that holds these values.

[facemeltingsolos]

I swear, this exact comment explaining what the NSFW tag is pops up every few threads. How can it still be mystifying?

[ghostnxs]

I think its a good idea to use it to promote equalit. If you can promote equality within the content guidelines be my guest. Also the Tapastic app is basically telling you its NSFW with its 12+ rating of infrequent/Mild Mature/Suggestive ThemesInfrequent/Mild Sexual Content and Nudity but whatevs. But gender equality has nothing to do with NSFW If you really want to promote equality keep doing with labeling men as NSFW as well I think that would be more beneficial than creating a site and removing the NSFW because that doesn't really show that these are nips as well.

[UzukiCheverie]

I know, I'm wondering the same thing. I've probably commented on what, three of these kinds of threads in the past month? I just don't understand why it's such a hot topic - it is what it is, no splitting hairs over it or trying to turn it into something people can debate over for no reason at all.

NSFW is not censorship,nor is it a rating. It definitely is not a politcal statement.

NSFW stands for Not Safe For Work. Which means you should not open this up when you are at work, because a nude image may pop up at an inappropriate time. An employee or your boss may walk behind you and see it.

Laws against sexual harassment in the workplace are getting strict. A male may have a female co-worker that sits across from him with an open view of his monitor. She may feel harsssed by the constant parade of nudity on his monitor and feel it there to make her feel uncomfortable. However, right or wrong her conclusion or the judgement of the stray passerby, it is neant to protect the viewer from getting in a stcky situation. A situation that may get them written up or fired. NSFW is meant to protect the viewer by giving them notice that nudity may pop up on the screen that is inappropriate for a workplace environment.

That is it. Don't make it something it is not. No high horse or soapbox needed. Just be courteous to you reader and let them know, "Hey, you might want to check this out at home."

Thank you so much for this ^^^^ This should honestly just be posted everywhere on Tapastic to keep these kinds of threads from being made. I have nothing against OP or the people that do make these threads, but against the whole "But I think nipples and swear words and NSFW stuff is fine!" well woopdy flipping doo for you. I can assure you that others don't, especially those in the work place or in a sensitive environment.

None of this is Tapastic's fault, who simply wish to conduct their business within the society that holds these values.

I think the worst part of it is this, besides the fact that this is such a recurring issue, is the fact that people just don't seem to care about Tapastic's policies. Every website ever comes with a set of policies, and signing up for that website means you are agreeing to their terms and policies.

The fact that so many people are trying to find loopholes through the damn NSFW filter with their wishy-washy opinions and their sensitive values just makes them look like they're disrespecting Tapastic itself, especially because they have to follow the global NSFW rules to keep their iOS app up. Does that mean nothing to any of our creators who insist on bringing their own opinions into the mix? Literally, nobody cares, and that's because in the grand scheme of things, your opinion doesn't matter. I'm not even saying that as the typical asshole-type-poster, I'm saying that so that people realize they're just doing damage to the own website that allows them to not only host their comics for free, but also make money from their comics, plus when it comes to the general rules and terms of most websites, even the website staff have little control over it (including Apple has to have them abide by their terms if they want to keep their app; that is out of Tapastic's control, and out of your control, no matter how "cool" you are around nipples).

And yeah, you could be all "THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO MAKE A CHANGE" about it, but no matter how many people you rally up or how much awareness you raise, it's about respect for fellow creators, websites, staff workers, employees, cultures, etc. There are always going to be different viewpoints from different people and different sides of the world, so just accept it and follow the damn rules. It's a lot easier and efficient than raising hell over it and putting other people/companies at risk because of your own sensitive viewpoints.

[noxfox]

As I've said it millions of times before, NSFW is not censoring your art or trying to offend you for doing so, it is giving people the decision of whether or not they want to see something that may or may not be offensive to them. Whether or not YOU think it's culturally acceptable, may not stand the same for people with different opinions, from different countries/cultures/etc. In the end, it's really not about what you want or think, but about what kind of respect you have for your readers and the website that lets you post your content for free.

In my opinion it is offending that chests of one sex be NSFW and the others aren't due to the cultural bias and body sexualization it reflects. As I said, I am not refusing to use the tags, I comply to the system in place but take the opportunity to apply the rule to a further step. Yes, I'm still making it political, and it's my own choice to do so, but I'm not doing it without care for the readers as I mind to give them an information about the nature of why the page is tagged.

Another issue: If someone does not want to see NSFW content and has set their options that way, they are unable to see your tags. Which sucks, since those are the people that would want to be informed about the content of your page.

I'm very aware of this issue with the mechanic, that's why I include a "spacer" after the warning so to push the page further down below, out of the screen (at least, on my computer it gets out of the screen...). I figured that this way readers would get the warning and could still choose to either refresh the page or jump to the next episode through the reading list. I tend to think it is still better to have warnings like I did rather than none at all and letting the readers figure "ow. so it was because gore, ew."

Laws against sexual harassment in the workplace are getting strict. A male may have a female co-worker that sits across from him with an open view of his monitor. She may feel harsssed by the constant parade of nudity on his monitor and feel it there to make her feel uncomfortable.

To be honest, I still do not get how such a situation would lead in trial for sexual harrassment before leading to the employee getting in trouble for slacking. If people read my series at work instead of ...working, I tend to think it's their taking risks. I don't mean to sound rude, but my job is not to protect the viewer, it's just to create entertainment. I didn't get in trouble for not putting more NSFW tags before the App was released so I think that it's safe to assume that the NSFW tags aren't for people who read comics at works as much as they are to comply to Apple or whatever's policy. So in the end we're actually talking General Audience ratings, even if it's called NSFW.

The simple fact is that girl's and women's breast are seen as sexual (as oppose to men's), and to say that their primary purpose is purely breastfeeding is, pardon me for saying so, a little ignorant of sexual biology. Their utility as a sexually attractive body part is, one might argue, just as important, and definitely more relevant to most people most of the time.

That's why I mentioned kink. Some (lots of?) people have a kink for breasts, or for butts. It's funny to note how butts (which can be used actively for erotic and sexual activities by either sex) aren't even as NSFW as boobs. Cultural constructs are but this. Some decades ago it was extremely inappropriate for women to show their legs, it was almost slutty. So I don't care if I look like I'm yelling at a tsunami, because in the end it may crash back on itself and calm down. It's when we think that things can't change and use this as an excuse not to act that, indeed, nothing will change. I'm not saying I'll succeed, because I'm a drop in the ocean, but I can try, and if more like me try the same, maybe the mainstream will change its course in the end. You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

[abbastudios]

To be honest, I still do not get how such a situation would lead in trial for sexual harrassment before leading to the employee getting in trouble for slacking.

You don’t understand how sexual harassment works at all. We are taking about one possible case here in the forum. There are many other ways to do it. Employees have gotten in trouble for using the internet at work and still do to this day.

If people read my series at work instead of ...working, I tend to think it's their taking risks.

People have been surfing the internet at work, since day one. It’s not a risk.

I don't mean to sound rude, but my job is not to protect the viewer, it's just to create entertainment.

You are correct it's not your job. It's a courtesy. A point you seem to miss. If no one is paying you to create entertainment, then that is not your job either. I would guess, it's a hobby? You obviously do care about your reader since you give a warning on your first poge.

I didn't get in trouble for not putting more NSFW tags before the App was released so I think that it's safe to assume that the NSFW tags aren't for people who read comics at works as much as they are to comply to Apple or whatever's policy. So in the end we're actually talking General Audience ratings, even if it's called NSFW.

NSFW is internet slang that went viral on it’s own, like IMHO, LOL, WTF, etc. There are unconfirmed reports it started on Usenet groups in the late 1990s. It seems that NSFW caught on in late 2001 and early 2002. The first definition appeared in 2003 in the Urban Dictionary.

The first generation iPhone was released on June 29, 2007. So NSFW could not possibly have anything to do with apps or Apple policy since they weren’t around in 2003.

[UzukiCheverie]

In my opinion it is offending that chests of one sex be NSFW and the others aren't due to the cultural bias and body sexualization it reflects. As I said, I am not refusing to use the tags, I comply to the system in place but take the opportunity to apply the rule to a further step. Yes, I'm still making it political, and it's my own choice to do so, but I'm not doing it without care for the readers as I mind to give them an information about the nature of why the page is tagged.

Well, good freaking doo for you. But as I recall from previous interactions, you seem to be fine with a lot of stuff that other people/cultures would deem inappropriate. And that's fine, but when it comes to the general terms and conditions of pretty much every website in the world, you need to be willing to comply. Don't want to? As I've said already, go start your own website. By being stubborn over it because you can't get over the fact that your opinion =/= everyone's opinion in the world, you're just putting Tapastic at risk. Not only Tapastic, but other people, as well as yourself, from suffering the consequences of not censoring your work where it's required, just because you couldn't get over your own sense of justice. It can lead to -so- many problems - people getting fired, getting your work shut down, losing your privileges on websites, getting sued, so many problems. Is that really worth the "WELL I'M FINE WITH NUDITY AND STUFF SO BECAUSE I'M FINE WITH IT SO SHOULD EVERYONE ELSE"?

I really don't think it is. Sad fact is, you could raise all the awareness you want of whatever you want, but it's not going to change the fact that different cultures and different people and different workplaces are going to have different opinions than you, and frankly, that's okay, because the world would suck if it was the perfect image of what we wanted/believed in.

Do all your non-conforming to society on your own territory, not where it could land people in hot water. You're just being disrespectful by doing that. I literally have so many cards I can pull here that would grand slam you in this argument, but I'm not going to do that because it's not worth it, and neither is getting so huffy over the apparently super confusing rules of NSFW.

[noxfox]

Hey guys, what's with the drama even?? I brought up a topic that you obviously disagree with for reasons that are yours. Okay, fine, I was never asking you to do as I do, and if you disagree with what I do, so be it. If we're talking about courtesy it would be courteous of you not to jump on your high horses and stomp all around again and again. The way you write is switching from voicing an opinion to bashing and I don't need this.

You said what you had to say, our opinions are different, we are not going to agree... Alright. We can be adults and agree to disagree. You can leave the thread and even fume in my back that I'm a stupid idiot with the bluntest mind and shitiest ideas and that you know so much better than me for all I care. You're probably right. You probably know better than me. But I'm hopeless in my stubbornness and I'd rather you let other people speak instead of trying to prove me wrong.

Nobody can be wrong here anyway. There's a game, there are rules, I'm not infringing them, only putting on a zealous strike, and even if it's infuriating to you, I'm still playing by the rules. Please, go call me an idiot elsewhere. I heard you, I'd like to hear other people now, even if it's for them to call me an idiot too in their own words.

[inkandmarkers]

By tagging a page as "NSFW", it respects equality in the sense that the all viewers--with many different opinions, cultures, and sensibilities--have a warning before proceeding for the sake of those who don't wish to see nudity.
However, the artist (you) may feel as if this pseudo-censorship distorts the original intention of your comic, bringing unnecessary and incorrect implications, despite emphasizing the non-sexual nature of your pictures.

I can understand both perspectives; personally, I'm not bothered by the nudity, but I think it's important to have the tags in. I know my parents would probably raise an eyebrow if they saw any sort of nudity on my screen.
I guess the most practical purpose for the tag would to remind kids to not open the comic when the typically-more-conservative older generation is around. I think "Woops, Mom's around, better wait until later to read this." It may also prevent workers from making an absent-minded mistake when stricter superiors are around. An employee might think "The boss wouldn't wanna see this; better wait until I get a break to read this." The reader still gains the enjoyment of reading the series, but they also respect the morals and comfort levels of others. ^_^

The taboo against nudity, I think, is as much of a generational topic as a cultural topic. I don't think that there will be commercials with naked people in them twenty years from now... but the Internet is a much more diverse medium, and users will gradually feel comfortable enough to trust the audience to make the right inferences from their series. "NSFW" is a very broad label and doesn't hold the best connotations, but it's smart that you specify what makes it "not safe for work" to differentiate it from series with sexual nudity.

It's hard to make a solid conclusion, since there are many perspectives and factors, so I don't feel confident enough to have a solid answer. Nevertheless, I think your series is very interesting, and all of your fans will be patient to read it (once Mom gets outta the room haha)

[scythe]

I think it's actually more cyclical than generational. Or like a pendulum that swings back and forth. My parents grew up during the 60s and 70s, the era of sexual liberation. Any backlash against nudity or sex was seen as regressive and prudish just a few decades ago. But then that generation got older and are now much more conservative. Nowadays its the young people complaining when there's too much nudity because the see it as, 'sexualisation' and 'objectification'. They go to twitter to complain when some company uses sex to sell their product, and as a result, everyone is dragged along as the world around them becomes more adverse to seeing nudity of any kind.

Probably in another twenty years it'll flip again back to the days where getting a tit out is no big deal. But who knows really? I agree with noxfox in that I don't think nudity should always be hidden away from general society, but at the same time, I understand that that's just my own opinion, and that things like NSFW labels should reflect the culture they appear in.

[inkandmarkers]

Ah, I forgot about the 60's. I never really thought about that, since I don't have any relatives that were teenagers/young adults during that time. You also gave an interesting point about the "cycle" of culture; nudity is liberation one moment, objectification the next. But the cycle is almost like a maze, since adapting old customs or making new customs can happen at any time. Or maybe it keeps changing and evolving and devolving like some demented Pokémon...
But I dunno what's right or wrong, at least in the worldly sense. Humanity has its high and low moments, and weird, reflective types like me go along for the ride ^_^;;

[ratique]

This is getting quite off topic, guys XD

[michaelson]

The NSFW tag was originally created as a catchall for a bunch of different scenarios - which albeit wasn't ideal but got a majority of the work done. Since then, the number of series on Tapastic has increased exponentially and the subject matter and maturity of themes explored diversified as well - so much so that the standard definition of NSFW is at times hard to apply to some of these fringe cases.

While all of this was happening, we were hard at work building our mobile apps. If you've ever used our iOS or Android apps, you can tell that the experience is different from the web version of Tapastic. We were of course building something more rapid fire, an app that lets you consume and discover series and creators more rapidly. A different experience with the same content.

However, this presented us with a new set of problems - do we doctrine a new set of content policy guidelines specifically for the app? Ultimately, we modified the current set of rules and made sure that everything on the web version of Tapastic would be okay for the mobile app. One of the concessions we had to make was how NSFW was treated and that meant being a little more strict.

Once the app launched, we were gearing up towards finishing up the final steps of the ad revenue program. But this presented yet another dilemma. Whenever you deal with money, things change. We knew that right after we launched the ad revenue program on the web version that we had to start prepping the mobile app for mobile ads ... meaning that we had to be even more careful with NSFW. If our app gets pulled that negatively impacts every creator both in terms of readership but also monetization.

We're very very careful when it comes to money.

Nox was actually one of the first creators I reached out to. It was important to me to reach out personally just because I know Nox - so much of how they use NSFW is context based, which I agree with. Context is key. Originally if it's nonsexualized nudity, I was fine with it - then I had some meetings with the fine folks at Apple and had to re-evaluate that.

Side-note: think of a crudely drawn stick figure with three legs (the third leg... obviously not being a 'leg'). How to you handle that? Is NSFW based on artist rendition - i.e. how detailed it is? Or is it a blanket case? Again, context and intent are very important here to us as creatives but to moderators that are on the outside looking in, it's pretty black and white to them.

I just want to say that Nox has been nothing but wonderful when it came to tagging Singmire Haze episodes as NSFW. I'm super grateful that for that, Nox is awesome.

Also, Nox has been instrumental to ongoing discussions of NSFW. It's important to get EVERYONE'S input and weigh in on their cultural values. We want to be open minded and considerate to everyone - can we accommodate everyone at all times? Sadly no, but we can strive to and I think that's what Nox is getting at.

I personally like the idea behind this additional classifiers - maybe we can implement in a different way with some tweaks to the UI/UX. I think the idea is fueled by good intentions and we shouldn't try to bash anyone.

One of the things that I absolutely love (and am SUPER grateful for) is that we're all optimistic and supportive of each other. I think we should mull over this some more, try to think about it more - try to figure out how we can be more accommodating.

Thanks for the discussion and I look forward to everyone's responses!

[ratique]

Oh Michael, what would we do without you...

I personally like the idea behind this additional classifiers - maybe we can implement in a different way with some tweaks to the UI/UX. I

I would support this. I like Nox' Bubbles, but I do not like how they interrupt the reading "experience", since they are placed in front of every NSFW episode. A classifier that is added somewhere on top of the page, like an icon next to the episode name would warn you early enough and would be less intrusive.