CG vs. Digital vs Tradtional

[danacraig78]

First off, I want to state I have a healthy respect for anyone who can draw comics. I think no matter what the medium used for comics, it requires dedication to learning and application. I have seen a various result in traditional, digital, and 3D. This post is not meant to diss any medium.

I am just curious what people think about CG generated content in comics (i.e. using Poser/Daz Studio/Cinema4D/Lightwave). In my honest opinion, all art takes an effort to learn and apply. This fact applies to all the programs I have mentioned because you have to learn how to create a composition. I do understand some of the negative feedback toward Poser because of an abundance of people who drop some random figure and hit the render button before calling it the day. The above process is great for learning the basics, but an artist needs to evolve from this point.

My process is something like this:

1. Outline and Plan the story.
2. Create and Store the characters for later use.
3. Load a scene
4. Pose the character based on actions from the plan.
5. Export the Scene to Cinema4D.
6. Configure the Set with the right lighting and stuff (and multiple test renders)
7. Render the sequence.
8. Bring it into After Effects with all the Object Masks for Postwork Filters.
9. Bring it into Photoshop for final touches.
10. Bring it into a Comic program to lay it out and add texts.
11. Place it into InDesign and export the PDF.

This is a rough concept of the process I go through with creating Fiery Soul. Each time I go through it, I learn something and apply it. Hopefully, the results are pleasing.:)

Anyways, I am interested in hearing your thoughts.

[CSJones]

I personally don't like the look of Poser comics - I've never seen one that impressed me, TBH - but any method you use to create your comic is valid as long as you're honest about it.

My comic is part traditional, part digital, part photo collage, for the record.

[scythe]

The problem isn't the amount of time or effort one puts into their comics, it's the outcome. That's all that matters. There are people who probably take 1/10th of the amount of time it takes me to make a page, but produce a much higher quality publication.

Look, I love using Poser as a tool, but as far as a final product goes, I just haven't seen a 3D comic that captures the necessary atmosphere / look to pull me into the story, on the contrary, the method continuously pulls me out of the story and reminds me of how it's made. But when one comes around that really captures me, I'll subscribe in an instant.

[sarahrebecca58]

Traditional for characters, modeling for backgrounds until I can find a background artist.

And let's be honest, anyone remember Gantz? Yea backgrounds done in 3D modeling software. There has been plenty of comics where 3D has been made indistinguishable from traditional comics.

[Kura]

I've given the 3D comics made with a character modeling poser program a try but have given up since then. Now I avoid them. Especially when they have the same default character models as the last one I saw. (I'm not talking about the comics that draw over the 3D poses, I mean the comics that literally just use default character models posed and are released like that)

I'll probably try again later when it's taken more seriously as an established medium and further developed, as right now for the most part it being treated as a quick fix tool for people who can't draw / don't want to do the drawing steps to a comic who half halfheartedly throw the visuals together (not saying all, I assume there has to be at least a few that are well done in this way)

[sarahrebecca58]

It should be noted there isn't anything inherently wrong with 3D background. Gantz does it, many other people do it, I plan on doing it. And I draw people. Yes I don't have a comic yet, but thought this should be clarified.

And as an aside, I know perfectly well how to draw people and perspective. Why does stuff like that even need to be stated on tutorial videos? I've seen stick figure comics and sprite comics, I think my illustration is just fine. (A retort to a tutorial video I once watched.)

[DeadAccount]

To start off, I do 3D character art for living - 3dsMax, Zbrush sculpting, texturing and all that good stuff, so I'm not alien to 3D. But I'm really not a fan of using 3D for character art in comics, especially using pre-made assets. Poser is a pre-production tool at best. Environments are understandable, but Poser characters just look so lifeless no matter how you render them. Unless you're willing to sculpt every emotion of every panel in Zbrush (and holy shit would that be amazing, and also take forever), I just don't see this working.

Comics that are obviously traced from photos bug me just as much, as well as photo comics - although there are definitely exceptions with some artier stuff, like, say, A Softer World. I'm sure there are others, and hell, maybe there is a 3D comic out there that makes the format work, but I haven't found it yet. It really doesn't help that 90% of Poser comics that I've seen are basically porn or erotica of some sorts. (edit: surprise-surprise! Looks like that includes OP's comic, too. Shall we make it 99%?)

(Come to think of it, Romantically Apocalyptic uses photos quite effectively. But I'm really getting off-topic here)

[eschaefges]

While I have no issue with 3D backgrounds, either in their entirety or used as a basis for a drawing, I dislike Poser-rendered art in comics mostly because it feels lifeless - everyone seems to have dead eyes and the emotion of characters are gone. Cartooning, comics, manga - these tools allow the artist to act for their characters and express a wide range of situations - movement, humor, etc. I just have never seen a Poser-based comic that achieved this very well.

[eagle1]

As a counterpoint.

The Shadow War is done with DAZ 3D for the 'pencils'. I render it using a camera that automatically converts the scene to a line drawing. That's then printed so that I can use it under my comic board, then do the inks and colours traditionally. Since I am re-drawing the whole page in the inking stage, I take that opportunity to play with things like details, expressions, and removing some of the woodeness of the poses (as well as drawing in things that were only place holders in the render). Then during the painting process, I add the rest of my mark to it.

While I do my paintings totally traditional, I worked out this form of a shortcut to save me time when doing comic pages. While I do some detailed inking, I do a lot looser painting than I do for my sale pieces.

I am experimenting with the render camera that I have been using with the intention of producing a CGI comic that is inked and cel-shaded as part of the render, thus allowing for a faster page rate, with only having to spend a limited time in GIMP adjusting shadows, faces, and the like.

Eagle
(Always learning something new)

[danacraig78]

Couple of things:

When referring to default characters, are you referring to stock figures for a particular release? The only time I have particularly used a stock character is for low-rez background. Populating a scene with high-resolution figures with 4000x4000 textures can kill a home computer. I do try to mix it up with the character I cast.

As far as pre-made, this argument is the same one within the CG community.:) There are people who far more talented at modeling and texturing than I am.:) I just simply try to put it to good use for storytelling.

[danacraig78]

Interesting.

[AnnaLandin]

I have no moral objections to the use of 3D in comics. If I had some time to spare, I'd learn how to model buildings and stuff for my environments, to make drawing them from various angles easier (i.e: use the model as a reference/base sketch, then draw the rest). 3D is just sculpture in a different medium, and no one can deny sculpture is art.

However, when it comes to using 3D in comics, I prefer the comics that do it sparingly - for backgrounds, as reference-models, as basic sketches to draw over to get poses right, etc. Comics that are 90% 3D-models just aren't my cup of tea - I don't like the way they look. This is very much a personal opinion, and has nothing to do with dissing the medium as such - it just doesn't look the way I like comics to look. The same goes for comics that are painted in a style that approaches photo-realism - they're impressive, but I don't really enjoy the way they look.

[danacraig78]

@AnnaLandin , I do get where you are coming from. I actually read some of the posts and thought deeply about how I am doing my own work. How can I improve it to avoid those pitfalls. To me, an artist experiments and learns from it...and I will continue to learn until I am six feet under. The funniest thing is that Poser was originally designed as a digital art reference and grew from there.

Another aspect I agree with is personal preference. There are people who do not like a particular style or whatever the case may be. There are comics that people go "It is the greatest", but it doesn't appeal to me. I do not expect anything different from other people. Everyone has a preference and I respect that.

I will put it this way. There are plenty of movies that utilize computer generated art. Some create an entire movie with digital characters and sets. Other use it to do very difficult to do stunt shots. Other do tend to over use it. There is always that statement that CG will take over movies and live actors will be out of business. I disagree. I will say the same thing for comics. It is a medium that one can choose to use for one aspect or another.

However, the one thing I gained from this topic is the same thing applied to all mediums. It requires working on those skills. Someone cannot just pick up a pencil out of the blue and decide they are going to draw a 150 page epic. The pencil does not create the art...it is a tool that the artist wields. If the person does not know how to wield it properly, the results can vary. The same thing applies to 3D and Poser. As I typing this, I am looking at my Tablet. Poser Pro does have tablet capability if I saw it right. One of the critical part of the discussion is blank expressions. I can see if I can use the tablet to touch up some of the expressions. Additionally, I can focus on how I can make the pose look less wooden. I have seen some artist show different iteration of characters, which evolves based on practice, skill improvement, etc. The same thing can happen in 3D art.

[eagle1]

I am on a company laptop, so I can't look at your comic, @danacraig78, otherwise, I would be happy to give you some feedback.

Honestly, I am not a fan of most CGI comics, as they just don't look right to me. It's the old Uncanny Valley effect, and there is not much way to avoid it. This is why I have been working on mine before I release it, and why I decided to do The Shadow War the way I do.

My regular artwork is all traditional, but I have a case of OCD that causes me to re-do drawings over and over until I am happy with it. That would never work with me trying to do a comic, and since I can't achieve the consistency that my OCD requires, this is my answer to that problem. The thing to remember is that in some ways, CGI comics are the ghetto of comics. No matter what you do, some people are going to consider it cheating.
It takes me 3-10 hours to modify and morph a model into something that matches the character concepts that I have. Yet, even though it doesn't look anything like anything anyone else has, I will get accused of stealing someone's work, even though they sold it with an end-user's agreement that covers what I am doing. Even with all of the work put into making it an original creation.

I don't worry about any of it. Honestly, I saw a lot of the same thing with the battle between traditional and digital, and that battle is nearly over. Digital won. Comics that have any traditional work on them at all are a minority, but you know what? It doesn't matter. Comics are comics. Photos, stick figures, CGI, traditional, digital, pixel, screen caps, it's all comics. Do a good story, and only the snobs are going to care about the visual part of the medium. Each of those mediums I just listed has some excellent comics with large fan bases. Playboy Magazine just named a comic as the best comic of the 21st century, and it's a stick figure comic.

Eagle
(Do what you do!)

[danacraig78]

I will go one further. It is visual storytelling. That is basically what the core of it is: storytelling. Even if the story is a three panel joke, it is a story.

After posting my last reply, I did open up Poser and try my Wacom. It works to a degree..and I will experiment more when I am not fighting this tension headache.:)

While the purpose started off as learning what the attitude is, I did gain some perspective, which is always a positive. On the professional level, I am a hobbyist. As my page will note, I am a Doctorate of Information Technology student (almost 2/5th of the way through!) I am not the type of guy who can come home and work on his computer..it would drive me nuts. So a long time ago, I started developing this hobby and tried to get better year by year. If people enjoy my work, great. If they don't, great.

And yes, I wouldn't recommend viewing my comic on a company laptop. Most of the NSFW is not because of eroticism, but because of other elements that might not sit well with children, bosses, etc. If it can't be seen or heard on primetime television in the context, I throw up a NSFW

Thank you for your perspective. It has given me things to think about.

[ToonDoctor]

Years ago, I dabbled with Poser and would redraw characters (that was around 1999 and none of that work was ever published). I was unsure that I could deliver and draw perspectives the "right" way. It was more of a confidence thing. So I used Poser for characters and other apps for background as a crutch back then.

I don't use any of these programs anymore. I don't think I need to. Instead, I focus on real observation from live models. There is nothing wrong with using Poser, Daz or any other app. In my case, it was best for me to stop and gain my confidence again. The availability of the 3D programs was a crutch. It did help with quickly reinforcing my composition skills as I didn't have to stress with the mechanics of making something look right. But I'm better off without these apps.

Having said this, almost any work we do nowadays has to be digitized in some way. I don't draw on paper anymore. It's all in the Cintiq. Digital illustration has freed me to explore and make mistakes in a way that would not have allowed me to experiment as much traditionally.

One of the problem with using 3D character libraries, is that they often look static when rendered. There,s a spark missing, often because of the perfection of the poses and staging. Redrawing them by hand can add error back. Error is good in illustration to give some texture and life to a drawing using but one line.

[danacraig78]

@ToonDoctor Interesting. I had started Poser around the same time with Poser 3. I think I see what you mean by perfection of poses, but what I am curious about is if the error can be added without redrawing it. Some of the content artists attempt to do the poses based on real life reference, which I think is the same as what some artists use. Additionally, I see options to change things with magnets and what not.

[Luie]

I can see you put a lot of effort into making these images, but something about it seems off. Maybe it's the stiffness of the models, maybe it's the 3d aspect. But it looks effortless, even if it isn't. You probably put hours of work in, but the final result looks effortless.

Have you thought of drawing over the models and adding details by hand? It might bring back that "artwork" feel. When reading a comic, the artwork helps me catch my eyes instead of letting myself skim over the dialogue. The more detail, the more I want to stop and look, and so the more memorable the page is as a whole. But with these renders and the bright dialogue boxes, I have to go back to look at shots I missed or glossed over. A lot of them look the same and I feel like I'm not missing important visual information by glossing over them.

This is totally my opinion though. I know you put a lot of work into making them, but something about them just makes them look like they aren't.

[danacraig78]

@Luie I do plan on putting a wacom to use in getting the hair to look nicer.:) However, my drawing is a little ..limited due to physical limitations. In later graphics, I have use gaussian blur for the hair simply because my hand was either shaking or it was hurting to do so. The former can piss me off so much that it leads to frustration.

I do appreciate your feedback and it is something I am going to consider heavily. Fiery Soul is the first 3D comic I have done in a long time and the first time I actually went into this much depth for it. However, each new panel I am learning something and attempting to apply it in further issues.:)

One thing I do want to know: Can you provide an example of the stiffness? It might be something I am not consciously aware of. For example, can you point out where a figure looks stiff and similar pose otherwise..maybe it is something I can fix..use a morph. V4 and M4 from Daz3D have a lot of morphs, but I might not be utilizing them to their best effect.

[danacraig78]

Ok, I want to clear something up. I am not opposed to drawing over 3D. I am just worried I will make it look..really messy.:)