Apr 2016
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Apr 2016
Aug 2018
scythe
Apr '16
williamjbowles

Well, that's a bit of a problem, because this test does nothing to distinguish whether those women are indeed being depicted as accessories for men, or simply accessories for the story.

Nor does it address situations where the genders are reversed. It's essentially trying to paint a very thin, specific line, with the broadest brush possible. The only reason anyone even gives it any credence is because that thin line does exist, there are fewer stories based around groups of women than around groups of men, but is this silly, arbitrary test the way to go about talking about /addressing that?

Whenever you start with a conclusion and then formulate up a 'method' to confirm said conclusion, your process is flawed, and any data you gather from then on is at best, questionable.

Dozzer
Apr '16

Hmmm, quite the discourse to come out of this thread. My series2 only passes 2 of the 3, and it passes the POC bonus question (IMO being "of color", the PCness of "person of color" feels a bit awkward).

I will say that, while this is an interesting test with lots of truth, it's probably altered my storytelling little to none. I wanna write what comes natural and what appeals to me. I feel it will, in the end, tell a truer, more convincing story. This test is good for literature study, but if it becomes a "yardstick" that alters the story's core to pass the test, the story sorta becomes a lie.

It's no accident my protagonist is a dude. I feel I can tell a stronger story (especially since my storytelling is an extension of my knowledge, experiences, and values). I'm not saying guys can't tell the story of a girl or that girls can't tell the story of a guy but, like I said, it's what came natural and what I've decided to lay out on the tablet.

Hmm, if there was a time I'd be triggered is if this test was applied in a strict, empirical way that governed content for the sake of pointing fingers at those who've never considered the test.

Just tell stories. If your core values want to shape literary discourse to be more representative or inclusive, tell that story.

Hannes
Apr '16

Hi, here is my Comic: Of Stars Profaned1
Ouch! I fail hard! I never even thought about this. The Comic I am working on atm does pass the test, so maybe it was just a coincidence. It's kinda interesting, anyway.
... What is this test all about, btw.? are there more tests like this out there?

jacintawibowo
Apr '16
novasiri

That is hard! I mentioned in a reply to someone else that if a character is genderless but uses a feminine pronoun then it counts (like in Steven Universe with the Crystal Gems). So I'm okay with that =)
The skin color question is hard too- I kinda lean towards that (I'll call it) "Monster skintone" doesn't count. Like, Hulk has green skin but is not a person of color, in the same way Bizzaro isn't a person of color for having gray-dead zombie like skin. However! If their features are drawn in a way that equates to an equivalent of an "earth race", then I would count it. Think of it as a character design read. Garnet (from Steven Universe) may have red/purple skin, but her features indicate a black woman's features. Hope that explains it =)

The test sheds light on a commonality that many stories can't seem to pass. Well-written women don;t have to pass the test, but doing so is certainly a step towards the right direction =) I mean, it would be nice if we get stories with more ladies in them that aren't just about us being love interests all the time!

That's cool! Thank you for sharing =)

This test wasn't to judge the quality of anybody webcomics! Like I mentioned several times by now: passing the test does not determine the quality of your story. People thinking that passing this test means "quality storytelling" or anything of "valuable resource to start discussion" is a weird tangent on their part. This test was literally to check whether your comic has more than one lady who talk to each other about something other than a guy. Anything else like dialogue, story construction, pacing, I'm not discussing.

"What comes naturally" can be quite a dodgy thing to say. Since we're surrounded by all these let's face it- white, male led narratives, when we write stories we end up writing about white male leads. I came from an international school and my mentor has observed that even if those students came from diverse backgrounds they will still write typical white male leads, because "it came naturally". All of the characters I drew in highschool were white, despite me coming from an Asian country. That too, was because "it came naturally". I think what's to discuss here is: why is it when "it comes naturally" the result is a story without more than one woman talking to each other about something other than a guy. Why is that such a low bar to meet, yet so many films and stories fail it miserably? That's what we should be talking about.

Hi there! This test came from a comic artist who was talking to her friend about films! It sparked a discussion about how women were treated in film, but it can apply to other storytelling mediums. Not passing the test brings up interesting questions, like: why do we have only one (or none!) female characters in a story? Why is it when we DO have more than one, why do they not talk to each other? And so on! It's a fun test to keep in mind. =)
Another variation is a test I heard somewhere about POC characters talking to each other about something other than a white person (though I can't remember the name of that test!)

jacintawibowo
Apr '16
2
NagashiKhan

That's the thing. When you say "who cares" it shows.
It IS a silly test. That's the whole point. That it's a such a low set bar that even ten hour long trilogies can't pass. How ridiculous is that? I even mentioned this in my post: passing the test does not determine the quality of your story. Lord of the Rings is an amazing story! The only thing the Bechdel test says about it is that despite being a long sprawling epic with several intense characters, it somehow manages to fail at getting two of their lady characters to meet and talk to each other.

I care. Representation is important. Representation is what inspired Mae Jemison to become THE FIRST African American woman to travel space. She saw Nichelle Nichols on Star Trek and was inspired to become an astronaut. Gail Simone saw Yvonne Craig play as a red haired Batgirl on TV, and it inspired her to be more confident and write for comics in the future. She's now the leading lady of DC. Linda Sue Park's book, "A Long Walk to Water" inspired CHILDREN to raise money through walkathons and selling wristbands for "Water for Sudan". They raised more than one million dollars.
There are countless stories of black girls feeling ugly about themselves over their skintone and hair. A heartbreaking story I heard from my mentor was her black niece seeing Tiana the Disney Princess on TV. She was still a baby, and yet seeing Tiana on TV made her say "she looks like me!" she knew it was something special. Heck, when Avatar the Last Airbender the tv show came out, it made me actually proud to be asian. I never felt like I could be in a story because all I saw as a kid where white people in stories. But with ATLA, it showed asians could be heroes and villains too. Crazy right?
Sure, you don't care. But a lot of people out there do. We want to see ourselves in these stories. How come white men are allowed to be featured in stories countless times and women are just supposed to accept that they're always depicted as: the love interest, jobless, and having no lady friends to talk to. Why are our narratives SO interlinked with men's lives that we can't seem to talk about anything else? Why can't WE go on adventures? Why can't WE go to space? Why can't we save the damsel in distress? Why can't we be the monsters? Why are we the ones sexualized? Why do women actors at the age of 30 begin to lose their career because "nobody wants to write about 30 year old women"? Why is it so hard for actors and actresses of color to find acting jobs in the US beyond racial stereotyping? Probably because people don't care abut us, right?

I never brought up pandering. This isn't about target audience. And yet again, I am not judging quality of storytelling. That is a tangent you decided to bring up (there's even a disclaimer up there in my original post, guys!)

Also, why does this test exist? Lemme grab a quote from Escher Girls because they sum it up nicely:
"Escher Girls, The Bechdel Test, Bikini Armor, etc, are all catchy terms, and great things to keep in mind when writing fiction with women in it, but it’s not as simple as just “not doing this one thing”. These phrases and ideas are meant to highlight specific issues about the way women are written and drawn in fiction and to open up a discussion about the larger picture of how women are portrayed. The Bechdel Test is meant to point out how few women have roles and how even fewer of them have stories of their own that don’t revolve around men. Escher Girls is about showing the prevalence of female characters being contorted or dressed in ways that maximize titillation over function. They are symptoms, not the cause, and addressing just one of them once doesn’t fix the underlying issue. Change comes by challenging ourselves to not just settle at “my princess punches people before being captured” or “the male hero’s love interest talks to her female friend about dogs at one point”, but to be willing to examine the overall way we’re depicting women in our fiction, how many there are, and how they’re situated. Centaur women, battle bikinis, and the boobs and butt pose are the beginning of the discussion, not the end."

I'm not guilt tripping anyone! I even wrote a little disclaimer saying that if you didn't pass the test, it's okay. I never said anything like "IF YOU DON'T PASS THE BECHDEL TEST MAY HELLFIRE RAIN DOWN ON YOUR WEBCOMIC". Not at all, this was just something I wanted to check out.
Also: "strange obsession with being represented". Wow. Just wow. I vaguely mention being sad that I don't see my race ever depicted in media and apparently I'm "obsessed". Wow.

Actually! Scripting classes used to teach their students1 to "not write about women having conversations with other women" and that if they do, "it has to be about men" because if they don't, "the audience will get bored." So yes, they were actually thinking about it.
We may not have been in these classes but we are affected by the stories that generation created.
The third criteria measures how the women in stories are often interlinked with men's lives. We're always the girl friend, the wife, the sister, the mom, what have you. How come men can be talking to each other about something other than a woman, yet whenever women talk, it's about men? Why can't we talk about stealing the declaration of independence? We don't talk about boys all the time!

jacintawibowo
Apr '16

I never said there was anything wrong about talking about men! Funny how you assume that.
What the Bechdel test is addressing is why women's lives seem to revolve around men to the point that whenever women speak, it's about men.
Also saying stuff like "I don't pass the Bechdel test in real life" is a poor argument. In stories, we can have dragons, gryiffins, fairies, hobbits,and a bunch of crazy things that don't happen in real life. Yet when we talk about women talking to each other about something other than a guy, our imagination goes at a blank. How come you don't bring this question to dragons?
Also girls talking to other girls about something other than guys does happen in real life. I've seen it, I've been a part of it, so there ya go! I'll serve as proof to that!

I've mentioned to another user that what I'm gonna call "Monster Skin" doesn't count. Only if the features are humanoid and relate closely enough to a POC human race (like Steven Universe Crystal Gems) will I count that more closely as a pass.

That's good! I'll be looking forward to that. I think adding POC characters and women is a good thing to think about. Especially in kid-lit and all-ages stuff, it's a very influential time to talk about this.

jacintawibowo
Apr '16

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this!

and that's perfectly fine!

jacintawibowo
Apr '16

I'm going to post this quote again because it explains it really well (this is from the blog Escher Girls):
"Escher Girls, The Bechdel Test, Bikini Armor, etc, are all catchy terms, and great things to keep in mind when writing fiction with women in it, but it’s not as simple as just “not doing this one thing”. These phrases and ideas are meant to highlight specific issues about the way women are written and drawn in fiction and to open up a discussion about the larger picture of how women are portrayed. The Bechdel Test is meant to point out how few women have roles and how even fewer of them have stories of their own that don’t revolve around men. Escher Girls is about showing the prevalence of female characters being contorted or dressed in ways that maximize titillation over function. They are symptoms, not the cause, and addressing just one of them once doesn’t fix the underlying issue. Change comes by challenging ourselves to not just settle at “my princess punches people before being captured” or “the male hero’s love interest talks to her female friend about dogs at one point”, but to be willing to examine the overall way we’re depicting women in our fiction, how many there are, and how they’re situated. Centaur women, battle bikinis, and the boobs and butt pose are the beginning of the discussion, not the end."
You can't put the entire weight of gender-equality writing on one test. This is just an opening to a larger discussion.

thumbsup!

That's interesting! There was this experiment done too at one point where they filled a room with men and women 50/50. They asked the men how many women they perceived to be in the room and the men said it was over 50%. When the women were deducted to be less than half of the men, they asked the men again how many women they perceived to be in the room, and they felt it was half.
Also cool writer Jim Zub talks about this too: http://jimzub.tumblr.com/post/117986754960/id-like-to-think-that-im-sensitive-to-the

zetina
Apr '16

That's.... so real...
It reminds me of this one awful thing, which I imagine applies to a lot of people of all genders. Somehow, when putting together a cast, having the ladies outnumber the dudes is... Not balanced? Basically, the "man is default" mindset. I had this mindset for a long time and it's so strange. I've shed it by now but mmm~

People forget how much representation matters. Media is often the only thing that introduces us to a foreign concept. If it gets portrayed poorly, we'll live with that impression, sometimes without ever challenging it. I have an example about sumo wrestling.

What images of sumo wrestling are in your mind? Fat people fighting, eating a lot cuz they just need to be heavy... Or so the jokes in cartoons go (I can only recall an episode of Ed, Edd & Eddy where they train Johnny to be one atm). So, starting to read a sumo manga was an interesting experience. It was tough to get used to the whole loincloth thing, to take them seriously. But you know what? Sumo is intense. And that manga is really friggin' good (Hinomaru Zumou if you wanna give it a chance). I love it a lot for giving back this sport its respect.

jacintawibowo
Apr '16

Exactly! I had that mindset way back when too. I was surprised looking back at my cast of characters and seeing how predominately male they were. I did that all without even thinking! We grow out of these mindsets when we're exposed to different stories and discussions.

That's a great example of representation in media! That's how stuff like "sassy black friend", "asian karate kid nerd", "hot asian girl student", "hot hispanic", and "nerdy indian" can be so damaging to our perception of others. It's awesome having stories now that challenge these thoughts, especially in webcomics where we take all the risks!

elixiadragmire
Apr '16

yeah it wasnt long, it was a good morning scene, a little talk at the dinner talk and trying to calm her down after her father leaves ^^;

Yeah this character i made a while ago and the more I got to know him to more it stuck me he was little autistic.

alaingrey
Apr '16

Whoa thanks for all the replies to my thought, guys.

It seems most people's opinion is 'If your story can be the same with women as men, then why not have more women?" and I totally agree. And maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think it works in every case, and that's ok. If your story is a Vietnam War story, I would definitely expect more men. If your story is a women's prison story, I would expect more women! And I think those gender ratios are important to the story and the issues that are being brought up.

I'm not surprised or upset that my comic colossally fails this test! My comic is about growing up gay during the AIDS crisis. It's a small cast, and therefore the ratio is 3:1 in favor of men. Yikes! When I started the comic, I really felt bad about this, and I actually thought about this particular test a LOT, so I came up with a plan. My main characters are in a band, so I decided, why not have them friendly with another band that's all women? I love girl bands! ... I scrapped the idea. It felt to me too much like Alvin and the Chipmunks vs the Chipettes. Like, here's the 'normal' band, now have the Girl Version! and it seemed really demeaning and not at all the Girl Power vibe I wanted :"D

So in the end... why not make the comic an 80s lesbian comic? Because 1. It's already been done (read Love and Rockets!! ) 2. As a gay dude I just have 0 personal investment in lesbian stories and I want to draw guys in those 80s workout shorts with those bad moustaches and tube socks and 80s gay fetish gear and... ahem.. 9 _ 6;; 3. It would actually significantly change the whole AIDS plot because that's not really a women's issue and I decided that those things were more central to the story than a need for more women.

That was too much rambling about where I'm coming from in my story even though it totally doesn't matter. the short version is, i think some stories can colosally fail.... I can fail the test big, but in the end still have done the best to make empowering women happen on the page.

jacintawibowo
Apr '16

That's a wonderful rant! And very relatable. A lot of us have gone through a variation of your journey and it's important to acknowledge that.

jacintawibowo
Apr '16
1

Hey Guys! How're you doing? Just wanted to give you an update on things. I've read all your responses, and I'm totally delighted to find that a lot of you guys passed the Bechdel Test! Congrats! For the folks who didn't pass (unintentionally or not) that's okay too!
I won't be responding as frequently on any further replies to this topic because I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself quite a lot. If you guys want to know more about the Bechdel Test (or the Bechdel-Wallace as it's recently being called) you can look at the responses in this thread (maybe someone has voiced the same concern as you! It's gotten to the point I see the same concerns resurfacing) that way we can learn from what's been said already. Also there's plenty of resources on the web (both directly related to the Bechdel test and are branching topics that closely relate to it) that talk about this issue in greater detail than I could ever write of it at the moment. Here's some resources to start you off (feel free to add if you have more in mind):
-"It's not about Race it's about Imagination" speech by Idris Elba2
-Jim Zub response to diversity question1
-Escher Girls quote I mentioned in this thread.
-Why film schools teach screenwriters not to pass the Bechdel test4
-Issue vs Incidental Diversity
-"My Least Favorite Trope1" by Elizabeth Bear
-#whitewashedout hashtag on Twitter (Asian creators share their experiences and thoughts on the continued whitewashing of Asian characters in media)
-The hidden message in kid's movies by Colin Stokes Ted Talk (This talk is a bit outdated, but it's a good talk to keep in mind of when writing stories)

My schedule doesn't currently give me the time to fully devote to this discussion and I've given it the ol' best try already.
Don't worry if your story doesn't pass the test, it doesn't have to to be a good story or have good female leads and supporting characters. Do keep this test in mind though as a symptom to a larger issue being addressed.
Thank you for your understanding and thanks so much for your contribution! <3

muhdreams
Apr '16

lmao no I don't think my comic passes any test

Unless there's a test for people with perspiration problems, then I pass that with flying colours and probably more.

dragonfly_kites
Apr '16

Lets see Kings is still fairly new...

  1. I have three female characters so far one child one adult, and one old lady. Oma and Astrid are the only ones with a spoken names and they both have spoken lines.
  2. Not yet
  3. Both time they have spoken it hasn't been about a dude so does that count? smiley
Kamikaze
Apr '16

The comic my team and I work on Kamikaze1, is set in a desolate future, were feudal corporations hoard the last patches of fertile crop land. A young courier is unwittingly thrown into a life or death game of espionage and sabotage from which she may never escape.

Thankfully we DO pass the Bechdel test, but...only just. Not for lack of trying, but currently in the story the two leading ladies who spend a lot of time together haven't gotten to that point in the story. :/ The conversation our lead Markesha has with her land lady Alice, is a set up for stakes, letting the audience know just how much trouble Markesha's in...

Unfortunately it's a short scene, but more in depth ones are coming up quite soon. blush

Good news is, our story is stuffed to the brim with all sorts of diversity, including our lead! So we definitely pass your 5th requirement @jacintawibowo! smile

NagashiKhan
Apr '16

Herein lies the problem-

Representation should not be important to anybody because it is a shallow, self- absorbed way to look at the world. If you cannot relate to a character on a personal level, regardless of race, gender, or religion, then I think that is something far more worth addressing than this silly litmus test. If only the whole world could hear me say, race and gender does not matter! It doesn't define who you are, it only adds to it! So why are we so absorbed in it?

However, you DO make a good point, and I'm glad you made it.

This is interesting- it's not surprising that "the industry" would teach such things, because the industry is about nothing but money. They look at the numbers, see the trends, and teach them as facts and rules to go by. Just because a chart says such and such, doesn't mean the audience will always get bored when it's not about men. This is what the industry doesn't understand- in fact, many people don't understand that "the numbers" only observe something under the specific conditions of a test, one should never live and/or create according to the numbers. It's about principle.

So, yes, were you speaking to a student of a scripting class, yes, this test doesn't seem too absurd, because those people have been indoctrinated. In that case, yes, we are talking indocrtination. However, have you read half of the comics on Tapastic? Do these creators look even close to indoctrinated to think of women as accessories to men? Hahahaha! Maybe you haven't been here for long, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody here who think of women as just an afterthought.

Despite this, I must also mention that, in response to @keii4ii, exactly what century are we speaking of when we say "it's rather uncommon"? Have you seen the bigger picture? Or do I just never pick up a piece of shit book/movie? It's hard to say whom of us really have the bigger picture, because as far as I can tell, women in media are enormous, fantastical, and pivotal. I can't even think of a current age book, movie, show or story where women are used as an accessory, or are treated as second to men. It's possible that I'm the one that is short on his media consumption, or maybe I'm just never drawn to media that is like this?

Either way, I would say a plethora of media outlets get this right. And please don't say "not enough do", because it's honestly not about the numbers, it's about the concept. Would the thirst ever be quenched, were we to take to the numbers? I believe the honest answer to that is no, but that's just me. There are many many many many many creators who get this right, I promise you. It's enough to make the world go 'round.

(As a side note, when I do write a comic that has a story line, you bet your bottom dollar that it'll pass this test, and by no means on purpose, lest I be a shallow, pseudo-righteous man of little substance)

keii4ii
Apr '16

We still live in an era where something like Mad Max: Fury Road stands out as an exception. I've come to expect accessory women characters as the norm, that during the first half or so of the movie, EVERY TIME a new young female character showed up, I caught myself thinking, "oh, is that gonna be the main dude's love interest?" That's saying something.

I can certainly think of shows/movies where the female leads take the spotlight. In fact, it's very easy to think of some. Why? Because they're exceptions, and that makes them easier to remember. Whereas if you asked me to name a few movies where the guy takes the spotlight, I'd be like, "ummmmmmmm... I dunno, a lot of them?"

Harry Potter, for instance. Hermione and Bellatrix are important characters who accomplish a lot of things. But at the end of the day, Hermione still isn't Harry, and Bellatrix still isn't Voldemort. I don't want that to change for that particular series, because that story is fine the way it is. But if that's how it goes in the majority of the stories out there... that's pretty skewed, isn't it? I'm saying that as far as I can tell, that is sadly the case.

And that's just for female characters, who arguably don't have it as bad as certain other groups.