That's a wonderful rant! And very relatable. A lot of us have gone through a variation of your journey and it's important to acknowledge that.
Hey Guys! How're you doing? Just wanted to give you an update on things. I've read all your responses, and I'm totally delighted to find that a lot of you guys passed the Bechdel Test! Congrats! For the folks who didn't pass (unintentionally or not) that's okay too!
I won't be responding as frequently on any further replies to this topic because I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself quite a lot. If you guys want to know more about the Bechdel Test (or the Bechdel-Wallace as it's recently being called) you can look at the responses in this thread (maybe someone has voiced the same concern as you! It's gotten to the point I see the same concerns resurfacing) that way we can learn from what's been said already. Also there's plenty of resources on the web (both directly related to the Bechdel test and are branching topics that closely relate to it) that talk about this issue in greater detail than I could ever write of it at the moment. Here's some resources to start you off (feel free to add if you have more in mind):
-"It's not about Race it's about Imagination" speech by Idris Elba2
-Jim Zub response to diversity question1
-Escher Girls quote I mentioned in this thread.
-Why film schools teach screenwriters not to pass the Bechdel test4
-Issue vs Incidental Diversity
-"My Least Favorite Trope1" by Elizabeth Bear
-#whitewashedout hashtag on Twitter (Asian creators share their experiences and thoughts on the continued whitewashing of Asian characters in media)
-The hidden message in kid's movies by Colin Stokes Ted Talk (This talk is a bit outdated, but it's a good talk to keep in mind of when writing stories)
My schedule doesn't currently give me the time to fully devote to this discussion and I've given it the ol' best try already.
Don't worry if your story doesn't pass the test, it doesn't have to to be a good story or have good female leads and supporting characters. Do keep this test in mind though as a symptom to a larger issue being addressed.
Thank you for your understanding and thanks so much for your contribution! <3
lmao no I don't think my comic passes any test
Unless there's a test for people with perspiration problems, then I pass that with flying colours and probably more.
Lets see Kings is still fairly new...
- I have three female characters so far one child one adult, and one old lady. Oma and Astrid are the only ones with a spoken names and they both have spoken lines.
- Not yet
- Both time they have spoken it hasn't been about a dude so does that count?
The comic my team and I work on Kamikaze1, is set in a desolate future, were feudal corporations hoard the last patches of fertile crop land. A young courier is unwittingly thrown into a life or death game of espionage and sabotage from which she may never escape.
Thankfully we DO pass the Bechdel test, but...only just. Not for lack of trying, but currently in the story the two leading ladies who spend a lot of time together haven't gotten to that point in the story. :/ The conversation our lead Markesha has with her land lady Alice, is a set up for stakes, letting the audience know just how much trouble Markesha's in...
Unfortunately it's a short scene, but more in depth ones are coming up quite soon. 
Good news is, our story is stuffed to the brim with all sorts of diversity, including our lead! So we definitely pass your 5th requirement @jacintawibowo! 
Herein lies the problem-
Representation should not be important to anybody because it is a shallow, self- absorbed way to look at the world. If you cannot relate to a character on a personal level, regardless of race, gender, or religion, then I think that is something far more worth addressing than this silly litmus test. If only the whole world could hear me say, race and gender does not matter! It doesn't define who you are, it only adds to it! So why are we so absorbed in it?
However, you DO make a good point, and I'm glad you made it.
This is interesting- it's not surprising that "the industry" would teach such things, because the industry is about nothing but money. They look at the numbers, see the trends, and teach them as facts and rules to go by. Just because a chart says such and such, doesn't mean the audience will always get bored when it's not about men. This is what the industry doesn't understand- in fact, many people don't understand that "the numbers" only observe something under the specific conditions of a test, one should never live and/or create according to the numbers. It's about principle.
So, yes, were you speaking to a student of a scripting class, yes, this test doesn't seem too absurd, because those people have been indoctrinated. In that case, yes, we are talking indocrtination. However, have you read half of the comics on Tapastic? Do these creators look even close to indoctrinated to think of women as accessories to men? Hahahaha! Maybe you haven't been here for long, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody here who think of women as just an afterthought.
Despite this, I must also mention that, in response to @keii4ii, exactly what century are we speaking of when we say "it's rather uncommon"? Have you seen the bigger picture? Or do I just never pick up a piece of shit book/movie? It's hard to say whom of us really have the bigger picture, because as far as I can tell, women in media are enormous, fantastical, and pivotal. I can't even think of a current age book, movie, show or story where women are used as an accessory, or are treated as second to men. It's possible that I'm the one that is short on his media consumption, or maybe I'm just never drawn to media that is like this?
Either way, I would say a plethora of media outlets get this right. And please don't say "not enough do", because it's honestly not about the numbers, it's about the concept. Would the thirst ever be quenched, were we to take to the numbers? I believe the honest answer to that is no, but that's just me. There are many many many many many creators who get this right, I promise you. It's enough to make the world go 'round.
(As a side note, when I do write a comic that has a story line, you bet your bottom dollar that it'll pass this test, and by no means on purpose, lest I be a shallow, pseudo-righteous man of little substance)
We still live in an era where something like Mad Max: Fury Road stands out as an exception. I've come to expect accessory women characters as the norm, that during the first half or so of the movie, EVERY TIME a new young female character showed up, I caught myself thinking, "oh, is that gonna be the main dude's love interest?" That's saying something.
I can certainly think of shows/movies where the female leads take the spotlight. In fact, it's very easy to think of some. Why? Because they're exceptions, and that makes them easier to remember. Whereas if you asked me to name a few movies where the guy takes the spotlight, I'd be like, "ummmmmmmm... I dunno, a lot of them?"
Harry Potter, for instance. Hermione and Bellatrix are important characters who accomplish a lot of things. But at the end of the day, Hermione still isn't Harry, and Bellatrix still isn't Voldemort. I don't want that to change for that particular series, because that story is fine the way it is. But if that's how it goes in the majority of the stories out there... that's pretty skewed, isn't it? I'm saying that as far as I can tell, that is sadly the case.
And that's just for female characters, who arguably don't have it as bad as certain other groups.
I don't really see how this holds water, because I, on the other hand, would NOT think that. Like, ever. So is that not saying something? That's just a matter of your mind set, how you percieve and break down a piece of media you're consuming. I wouldn't say that really makes an objective point about the state of current age media, I'd say that's how you've grown to observe it, not necessarily how it presents itself.
Hmm, yes, I can see how this makes sense. I was thinking of this as I was writing, I'm glad you brought it up. But is this test about simply who stars in the story, or how men and women are represented? Like, the Transformers movies for example- this is one of the easiest to think of when it comes to NOT passing the Bechdel test, because you can tell Bay is just an industry guy, just another bag of d***s basically tainting this world with it's clear "male lead female accessory" model. But say Castle, for example, also does not pass the Bechdel test- I don't THINK (I haven't seen enough of it, but of what I have, it wouldn't seem so), yet Castle does not at all misrepresent women- in fact, I think their female lead is bomb. This may be a weak example, but even yet it was off the top of my head. It's not an exception, but it still sticks out, I think.
But putting Harry Potter into this equation is very strange, especially considering Rowling's record of being super open about her books- like, this isn't an industry case, this is an author who really portrayed what she wanted in her story. And honestly, what does "she's not Harry Potter" even mean? Who gives a crap about Harry Potter? Hermoine was why we watched the movies, Snape was why we watched the movies, good 'ol McGonnogal was why we watched those movies, not Harry, not Voldemort. I mean, right? Is Harry your favorite character? Is Harry even relatable??
But lemme stop crashing this party, I think this, with any response made,would be a good conclusion to this discussion. People who visit this Topic, who are honestly interested in seeing whether they pass the test, pointless or not, should do so. And thanks for being reasonable @keii4ii, I like having discussions with you, you handle yourself very well <3
ElectroMania does! Even though the main characters are a man and an agender person, there are an equal number of women to men in the story. (Three men, three women, and the nb person) The antagonist is a woman, and two of them, a white woman and black woman, are girlfriends that obviously speak to one another a lot. All of them have names and are critical to the story's progression! Though most of the time they aren't having a conversation to themselves, but are present with other in a room and talking to each other and men as well. Of course, I sadly have yet to draw most of these things in, but this is all established within the first chapter and a half 8*)
Here are my girlies if it's ok to show you: 
I kind of had in mind from the start that I wanted there to be people of color, and an equal number of men to women. It leaves a wider margin of interest, I think :> and it's fun to draw different types of people!
Not sure the Bechdal test is a remotely good test of a comic or author's attitudes toward females, but Heroes for Ghosts passes with flying colors. Over half the characters so far are female. Nearly all are people of color/mixed race and of course they talk to each other. They are all strong, intelligent, badass women. It would probably shock some that with 63 pages out there isn't a single romantic line uttered by a character female or male. The ladies may be talking about men at some point, but it's not going to be about how hot they are or how they got their hearts broken by them. Heroes for ghosts is a story about warriors and that's what the ladies are-- extraodinarily powerful people.
My comic is titled Mercenary Inn and it is about an amateur mage who joins a group of mercenaries as they try to prove themselves in a world of superior magic.
1. One of the main characters is a female (named Eris). The mother of a secondary character who is planned, but not introduced (the comic is in its early chapters) as well as the main antagonist will be female.
2. Obviously Eris and the antagonist will talk, and the mother will as well to a lesser extent.
3. The mother I want to be a damsel. But in an extreme way. Like Bella Swan 10x except in sort of a sympathetic villain role. So she will mostly talk about her husband. Eris will talk about her grandfather. Does that count? I never really understand this. Talking about PEOPLE is important in characters. And not talking about men is just cutting out 50% of conversation. It should be changed to not talking about men in context to romance or lack thereof. Eris also talks about strength, and people she hates cause they look done on her (not for being a girl though). The villain talks about SPOILERS, but it's not a guy, also Eris, her backstory, and a minor antagonist who is a guy, but they are not romantically connected.
Bonus: idk. What does this really mean in a fantasy world anyways? The villain has purple hair and Eris's hair is red. They are pale skinned, but so are Asians and they are not white, so does that make them a person of color? Despite her red hair I thought of Eris as half Asian, half white (but it is a fantasy world so Asia is not a real thing).
I want to add my favorite manga here if I might:
It is called Lupin III and it about a thief and his companions and the cop who is after them. Basically an episodic heist comic.
1. Lots of girls, but it is episodic so there sort of has to be. 90% have the same name (fujiko mine). She's a play on the bond girl. In every chapter she has a different backstory and bit different personality, but she's always Lupin's rival. The rest of the girls are antagonists with different names.
2. Fujiko is usually the only antagonist whenever she shows up so she doesn't talk to any girls, but in some chapters there are criminal gangs with lots of women who talk.
3. Lol. They talk about MONEY like 99% of the time. It is so tongue in cheek.
Bonus: It's manga. Does Japanese count? If so everyone is of color
Frankly, it doesn't matter if it follows these rules or any rules. As long as it expresses creativity and is an overall good story. Hell, I have a test of my own called the BBQ Test.
Step 1. Is the story original? If not, make it original. If unable to make it original, then make something else.
Step 2. Is the story good? No? Then return to step one.
Step three is optional, it's just eating some grilled pork, beef, or chicken. Or any meat really, but make sure it's nice and coated with barbecue sauce and grilled to perfection.
Rinse and repeat, my comrades.
Cosmos Song1 does have more than one female character, the main character actually being female herself. There are currently 3 female characters with speaking lines in the story and more of them will appear later on, as the comic is still very young.
Roxy hasn't really had a lot of interaction with with the rest of her tribe members yet aside from her cousin Kai and his kids (Phona and Zeo) since Ron's appearance in the story for obvious reasons. She will be interacting with another character soon (who has not been introduced in the story yet.)
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Roxy has not yet spoken to anyone else about the Ron incident yet aside from the chief, who is pretty much trying to cover it up. Since the story is only 34 pages in, not every female character has been introduced yet and there will be various times where Roxy does speak to the characters about something other than Ron (even though admittedly he will come up quite often regardless of the gender she's interacting with because hey, foreign! xD)
The main character of Cosmos Song is in fact a woman of color! Considering the comic primarily takes place in the tropics, 90% of the cast are actually POC.
Is there a reason it doesn't pass the second but passes the third? I'm curious! Was it the time limit constriction for the second rule? If the convo is not about a dude, then it counts =) preferably not throwaway comments like "catch this!" or "pass the ketchup", but they count as "somewhat passes" =)
I've so been meaning to read this series! <3
It totally is <3
Congrats for passing so well! And of course this test doesn't show the author's attitudes towards ladies, never said it was. Just a test to see if two ladies talk to each other about a non-dude topic =)
Sorry, talking about male relatives doesn't pass the test. The third requirement is to test if your lady character's life doesn't revolve around male characters to the point it's the only thing they talk about. Even non-romantically.
Men don't take up 50% of conversations! There's plenty of conversation topics aside from men: food, other ladies, talking about "the girl herself", the environment, morals, the government, the apocalypse, your rent, a videogame you were playing, war plans, etc. lots of non-dude and non-people topics!
(I used to be confused about this too) Think of it as a character design. If I put your character on a flashcard and showed it to an average person, will they be able to tell that your character is not white? For example, in a fantasy setting if I take Legolas from Lord of the Rings film, he's clearly a white elf. But if I take Gwendolyn from Saga, she may not be human, but it's very clear she's not white either. Same with Garnet from Steven Universe (I use her as an example a lot because of her purple/red skin) she's a rock from space, yet we know from her character design that she's not white. So if the intention of the design is to portray them as POC in a fantasy setting, then it's a pass!
Ooh I always wanted to watch it! I love the style and the charisma the characters seem to have! And yes, usually manga have all Japanese characters, which counts as a pass.
I never said the Bechdel test was a judge of quality or original storytelling. You got to that conclusion on your own. This test is literally just to check if you have two lady characters that talk about a non-man topic. It's a very low bar to pass, and yet many stories don't pass.
Cool!
oh, i see. well in that case they do talk about some of things you listed. as for non-white characters. all my characters so far have white complexions. but if what they wear and the culture they follow count my MC is not white.
In a perfect world, race, gender, and religion, shouldn't matter. We don't live in that world. Regardless of you feeling that way, it doesn't change the world we live in. That's ignoring the problem. We are not shallow for wanting to be seen and acknowledged respectfully in film. You say we should "relate to a character" on a personal level regardless of race and gender. We've been doing that with white male leads all the time. How is it when we ask for an asian or a black character lead, it's "why can't you relate to our precious white male characters? You should be able to relate to people regardless of race and gender!" My response is: why can't you relate to people regardless of race and gender? Is it because you don't find asian or black characters relate-able? Sounds like a double standard.
Literally just this past week two big budget films (Dr Strange and Ghost in the Shell) are white washing Asian characters. This is widely being talked about in creative circles. This is still a problem today. Even if you don't see that.
That's...why I made this thread. To ask people in the community if they passed. Don't get me wrong- I anticipated that most people would pass. Webcomic artists are diverse individuals who don't have to appeal to an editor, middle man, or industry to make stories. They make the strangest stories I've ever read with plenty lady leads and characters of color. I was simply curious about this community in general.
Also I'm not saying anyone's being indoctrinated here. I'm saying that there's an understandable chance people are being influenced by the stories of a previous generation of creators. The unique stories we find here are the result of people being aware of the problem and actively avoiding those cliches. Some comics here do it, some don't. That's just how it is.
Thanks? I guess. People will appreciate that. Though you really shouldn't call them "pseudo-righteous or shallow". That's...really mean.
Great that you're making stories, creativity is cool and all... just don't be mean about representation. It's a really hot topic in comics and a lot of people care about it. Don't be calling them names for...adding women and POC characters in their story.
I'm scratching my head at this somewhat. How can adding POC and women in to a comic be considered pseudo-righteous and of little substance? Are you saying these groups can only be "the other" and not the default?
I think he's talking about putting in minority characters for the sake of "diversity" over such basic things like well plotted stories or character development.
