Fighting Creative Negativity and Self-Deprecation

[HGohwell]

So, there are a few very old threads dead on this but it's still something I see everywhere. People who put themselves down and do not understand the difference between modesty and harmful self-deprecation, and who don't understand the difference between confidence and arrogance. Now, obviously these are subjective. But how often do you think about how your attitude impacts your readers or potential readers?

For instance, one of the most common things is artists/writers talking badly about their work in public. Please do not do this! I'm not talking about "I think my lines could be better" or "I need to work on my colours" this is modesty and honesty and someone trying to improve. This puts out a good impression as a creative person constantly trying to improve. I'm talking about "my work is terrible I don't know why anyone reads it". This is harmful to your work. At best, you come off as fishing for compliments and desperate. At worst, people go "why should I even give it a chance if its creator thinks it's bad?".

Another common issues is when given a compliment, creatives will reject it. If someone says "wow you're art is good" you often see people respond "oh it's not that great, I'm terrible really". Please don't do this either! If people are complimenting you, and you reject the compliment, especially publicly, you will see less people complimenting you. Why should someone tell you they like your stuff if you tell them they're wrong? Not to mention there's significant evidence that this also impacts your own mentality negatively. One of the most simple changes you can make to feel better about yourself and to be more professional and personable in public is, even if you don't agree with the compliment, rather than reject the compliment just say thank you. Just that. Even if you say nothing else just a thank you is way more positive than rejection.

And the final huge problem contributing to this is people conflating arrogance and confidence. Or even arrogance and liking your work. This is not healthy! Much of the creative community seems to have convinced itself it's unsightly and arrogant to like your own work and be proud of what you created. What's with this? You are not a terrible person for wanting people to see something you're proud of. You're not a terrible person for being proud of something you worked hard on. You're not a terrible person for saying "I think this is pretty good".There is a massive difference between "I like my work and maybe you should check it out" and "I'm the best and read my work read my work READ MY WORK!"

So here's some tips:

• Consider your work your child. You created it after all. If you hate your child, it'll be negatively impacted and get a bad reputation. If you love your work, it'll thrive If you push your child in everyone's face and tell everyone they're absolutely perfect, it's gonna be hated.
• Be graceful when accepting criticism and compliments. Don't agree, just say "thank you" and move on.
• Fake it til you make it really can work. This is part of what we learn in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Changing your behavior can change the way you think. It's a slow process, and in many ways it becoming the mask, but it works and can help in little details.

I'm sure there are people ready to say their anxiety or depression makes this hard for them, and it's all well and good for me to say this. But, I was there too. I went through such bad anxiety and depression I couldn't send messages online, I couldn't leave the house without a panic attack, the idea of sharing my work and having people tell me how terrible it was brought me to tears. When I did share, I would point out the flaws in my captions and tear it apart with criticism because it was better I did it myself before someone else did. Guess what, it didn't make me feel any better. It was a constant spiral downwards. And when I wondered "why won't people appreciate my work?" the answer was because I was telling people it was awful before they even got there. So no, anxiety and depression don't make it easy, but they don't make it impossible.

So, what stories do you have? What negativity have you experienced in the creative community? What negativity demons have you got over and how? What are your tips for conquering this and getting some confidence?

[azzy-m]

I remember when I started publishing on Webtoons during the 2018 Webtoon Contest, I made the first version of my current comic. Back then I was very conscious of numbers, particularly the rating. I got really disheartened when the rating started going down from 8.50 to 8.23 and so on, because to me, a rating of something that's not 9 stars and above is bad.

So, my tip: don't obssess over the numbers your work is getting, and concentrate on improving it as you continue to work on it. Your work will improve naturally over time and people will want to check it out.

[yansusu]

I actually never really got that whole 'not finding your own stuff good'. If I thought I was this bad at something, I'd probably drop it or at least not make it publicicly available. I only have short phases of self-doubt immediately pre-publication where I'm questioning everything from conscious artistic choices to my general skill level. But I always think that's more like getting cold feet before a wedding. It's normal to feel some anxiety but you can't let it weigh you down too much and should keep going if you were good with everything before that point.

In regard to the self-deprecation in response to compliments, I'd like to add that this isn't a problem specific to the artistic community though. It is (at least in some cultures) the normal response. You don't just go around and accept compliments, you down-play them because that's the socially acceptable reponse to them (even though you can still be super happy about them inwardly and believe that the other person is right, you just wouldn't say so).
I think the difference here is that down-playing is one thing, outright negating the other person's compliment is another. The latter is basically slapping the other person's face so that isn't a good way to react. I think the issue is to find a way to strike a balance with this.

[therealbereth]

I'm just gonna say it: I love what I do. I'm confident in the skills I have acquired—and I know which skills still need some work. But why would I downplay what I have been working on for over a decade now? I started with THE WORST style, if you even want to call it a style, with the worst tropes of "toxic sexual addiction somehow develops into a respectful relationship", with the worst fan fictions.

That was 2009. I've gone through criticism and support alike, and I learned what works for me and what doesn't. It doesn't even make sense to me to downplay that, and I don't think I will ever understand why people do it.

But if you keep seeing people conflating confidence with arrogance all the time, it's hard to stand by that confidence sometimes. I feel like someone out there might just be waiting for me to utter something akin to confidence in my comments section to come flying and hurl something like "you're no master!!!" at me, like...... I know, friend. That's why I'm confident in the things I do know. And it's why I can't wait to work on the things that I'm not comfortable with yet (descriptions are still hard for me to do, although they get more alive each time I write them, yesss).

And you know... I've been through deep, DEEP, waters of depression, anxiety, paranoia and self-harm. They still creep up on me sometimes. But if I were to start tearing down the one thing I have spent the most time on in my life now? That would certainly not help quell anxiety if it arises again.

[HGohwell]

I think the difference here is that down-playing is one thing, outright negating the other person's compliment is another. The latter is basically slapping the other person's face so that isn't a good way to react. I think the issue is to find a way to strike a balance with this.

I think this is a super important point and links into what I was saying about the difference between modesty and going to far. I have genuinely seen people when complimented say things like "I don't know what you were looking it's awful" and mean it seriously and things like "you must have terrible taste." There's a huge difference between that and polite "thank you thank you it was nothing really" type downplaying and modesty. I think this might have been where it started once upon a time and has just been taken to the extremes because the internet does that.

I feel like someone out there might just be waiting for me to utter something akin to confidence in my comments section to come flying and hurl something like "you're no master!!!" at me,

This is exactly the sort of thing I see all the time. Especially out there where people try to offer help (the recent case of the manga tips debacle) and go "here's are some tips they help me they might help you" and people will come out and berate them for assuming they know everything. I have a very similar experience with fanfic (I stand by fanfic being a fantastic way for budding writer to get confidence and grow and I'm so glad people are becoming less ashamed of it) and I'm generally pretty confident in my stuff, but saying it on the internet often feels like I've said something wrong. We're not claiming to be perfect, just that we like my own work.

[HGohwell]

@kainatarma The problem is, especially for things like webcomics, why should someone read something you say isn't good. As I said there's a difference between "I'm working on this" or "I could do this better" and "my work is shit why is anyone reading it". One is honestly trying to assess your failures and shows an artist/writer trying to improve (that's positive and shows you care) while the other comes off as you hate it so why should I care. And I know that's harsh but that is how it comes off to the general public.

Not caring about it, or just get used to it is somewhat more useful than any positivity bullshit for me right now.

You can call it positivity bullshit all you like but the basic principals of change the way you act change the way you think is literally therapy to deal with depression and anxiety. There is significant evidence you telling yourself you're awful is harmful the same way other people constantly telling you your awful is. You're emotionally abusing yourself. I'm not saying sing your work's praises everywhere and say you're perfect, I'm saying that constantly telling yourself and other people you're terrible doesn't get you anywhere.

[yansusu]

Oh sheesh, there is so much in this discussion that I don't even know where to start So this might be a bit jumbled but there were some things that popped into my mind when reading this. I'll be writing 'you' very often but it isn't directed at anyone personally 98% of the time, it's just a weird thing I do when writing in forums

Not caring about it, or just get used to it is somewhat more useful than any positivity bullshit for me right now. Plus, if there's always somebody who is better than you, the reverse must applies! At least you isn't the worst!

I'm not quite sure if I understood this the right way but what I read out of this was: It's depressing that you can't be the best at something so you might as well not try since you're just awful.
First point: I think this notion of "the best" is difficult with art (in this case comics and novels but I guess it holds true in general as well) since there are just so many ways to do things. So who really says what is 'the best'? It's, for the most part, a matter of personal preference.
Second point: On the other hand, there are some more objective things like grammar or punctuation or maybe even characterization and tropes and stuff. Maybe somebody learned more about that than somebody else so they could be counted as 'better' but - and this is the nice thing - art isn't about talent. It's about effort and time and patience. Even if an artist doesn't know something on day 1, they might know about it on day 2 or maybe day 100. If somebody is passionate enough about their art, then they can continue to try and improve until they get over their weaknesses (and discover new ones ).

Society are too intoxicated with "positivity" and go in any length for judging people who don't conform to it. It's okay to feel insecure, dissatisfied, bitter, or just not feeling good about yourself. Not feeling confident does not mean incapable, it means the mind is not convinced yet it's capable.

Yes! I totally agree with that. People can totally feel all that and it's good to do that. Every now and then. If people feel that all the time, they might need to change something though because that just sounds darn unhappy to me.
But there's one thing in regard to this that I feel is important to note:

The problem is, especially for things like webcomics, why should someone read something you say isn't good.

You can feel terrible in your personal space as much as you want to and if you're doing art 'just' (not meant derogatory) as a hobby, then you can even put it online. But if you want more than that - let's say earn your living with it or even just get recognition - then you have to keep silent about that kind of thing because readers don't want to read about this all the time. It might be okay to say every now and then if there's something up but when you repeat that time and time again, then it just gets tedious for other people and I could imagine that a lot of them walk away because they don't want to be confronted with this.
This is where the marketing-can of worms would need to be opened but I feel that I already wrote too much.

TL;DR: It's okay to feel bad and incapable but we shouldn't forget that we can always get better at what we do. We can also talk about feeling incapable but if we want recognition, then maybe we should keep quiet about it more often than not.

[Jenny-Toons]

I feel the thread might get misinterpreted as people demanding creators be happy all of the time, and frankly, reading over the OP, I can see that’s not the point of this thread.

Because frankly, you can be as quiet as a mouse and still not be self-depreciative. I feel a lot of people equate being confident in one’s work to being this vocal cheerleader who’s loud and bold. And that’s not always the case. Not everyone will express positive vibes in the same way, and that’s ok. No one is saying to not talk about anything that isn’t positive. We all should be comfortable to express our emotions and work through them, negative or positive.

However, the point of this thread is to address a behavior that’s not special to the creative community, but to a lot of us. We still have a number of people who think being confident in your work is arrogant.

They equate “yeah, I’m really happy with how this turned out” to “I’m obviously the best, no one else is better than me”.

I dunno about you, but I got two different tones of voices from both sentences. There is a difference.

At the same time, we have a number of people who think trashing yourself and your work is “humble”.

They equate “I still see ways to improve, but I’m glad I’ve gotten so far” with “I am trash, my work is trash, and you shouldn’t be complimenting anything I make”. There is a difference.

OP has given some good examples about that previously. Now, honestly, it’s not easy. These feelings are normal for some people more than others (for various reasons), so it’s not really easy to shift from that thinking. They can try to do positive thinking, and it just might not click for them. And frankly, if they’re doing comics for a hobby, they don’t have to keep up an appearance. They’re doing this for them first, and that’s gotta be respected.

But, at the same time, if you’re selling a product and you’re very intent on wanting people to consume your product, you can’t wonder why no one doesn’t bother to look when you have been constant in telling them “don’t bother looking”

As harsh as it is, sometimes, readers just won’t care enough to understand the reasons why a creator might refuse compliments or claim their work is trash. Some readers definitely will care and they will try and work with that creator. But not everyone will do this, and if they DO happen to, they won’t do it for long. Because unless they’re a close friend to the creator, it’s essentially a stranger relationship, and not everyone will give that much interaction to the stranger the same way they’d do for someone close. It’s harsh, but it’s true – I’ve been on the offense and defense of this.

It is a problem, and it’s a difficult one to solve. We have had those moments of self-doubt, some worse than others, and sometimes, trying those positive exercises don’t always help. But, at the same time, it’s unhealthy to constantly live in a state of negativity. Just as some claim you can have too much positivity, you can definitely have too much negativity. We all have to find that balance for ourselves.

How we do that?

Well, I can’t answer that for anyone else but me. I have my ways to combat self-doubt, and those ways may or may not help others. But I can say that those ways have made me feel confident in my work, in myself, and just in general. I can see where I need to improve, but I can also see the accomplishments I’ve done. And I think that’s really the goal of this thread.

It’s less about telling people to “be happy”, and more about addressing how to see your flaws without constantly trying to tear yourself down. Because it gets tiring after a while.

And again, you don’t have to be this loud cheerleader to do this. Confidence doesn’t have to be this outspoken thing. I might be loud online, but in real life, I’m super quiet. But even then, I know what I can and can’t do, and I just improve along the way. It’s really all I can do. And that’s all I can say now.

[therealbereth]

sometimes they self-deprecate as an actual cry for help.

That's true, of course, and I don't think any of us meant to put down people who truly struggle to keep afloat. And I empathize with these feelings to a degree – having felt paranoid and targeted for years after being bullied, I kinda know how different a cry for help can look like; it can be self-deprecation, or it can be outright aggression because you've ignored your feelings for too long etc.

The thing is, and I'm still saying this as someone who went through a lot of these negative thoughts myself: it's not our readers' job to react to a cry for help. I don't think it's right to heap that emotional baggage on other people without even giving them the chance to consent to it. And that is exactly what one does if they constantly put down their work. They put the weight of the emotional labor on their audience. That's nothing anyone should be doing in my opinion.

But... You really aren't "weird" for preferring the human side to creators.

Still, there's a difference between acknowledging your faults as a creator, or sometimes showing that you're struggling—and heaping all this emotional baggage on your audience without any chance for them to dodge it. This is when people will shut down and leave.

---

For now, just simply be neutral or not caring is enough step. Detach any strong emotion from whatever you are doing, then it's easy on the mind.

And see, you're on your way of not being too negative all the time already! I know just how hard it is to change the patterns in our thoughts, as they can be so ingrained from birth. Maybe some notes around your workplace might help? "I am ok the way I am", "failing does not mean I am a failure" etc., all these little things. Just reading them regularly, reading them aloud sometimes even, can help a lot in steering your thoughts away from self-abuse.

[HGohwell]

For now, just simply be neutral or not caring is enough step. Detach any strong emotion from whatever you are doing, then it's easy on the mind.

I supposed we have no option but to disagree but when someone doesn't care about their work, why should I? If you're not willing to tell me why I should read it even mildly, why should I? I wouldn't try to convince you to read someone else's work by telling you all the bad points or just "I don't care".

Sometimes, I prefer to stick with authors and creators who openly say their insecurities and problems about their work than the one who only post positive things

You're confusing talking about what you can improve with being negative and saying your happy with being arrogant, just like above. There's nothing wrong with saying "I can improve this" or "I'm not 100% happy with this" I've said that over and over. That looks human and tells people you're trying and improving. The problem is when all an creator says it "I suck". There's only so many times you can tell people that before they go "you're right you do why should I keep trying". All I'm asking is people respect themselves and their work and put work out there that they're at least a little bit proud of. If you're not at least a little happy with it and can't say "I think this bit is good" or "I like this about my work" you shouldn't put it out there.

I feel the thread might get misinterpreted as people demanding creators be happy all of the time, and frankly, reading over the OP, I can see that’s not the point of this thread.

I am starting to get the feeling a lot of people are reading it that way and perhaps that's my fault for not being clear enough, so I'm glad someone understood.

They equate “yeah, I’m really happy with how this turned out” to “I’m obviously the best, no one else is better than me”.

They equate “I still see ways to improve, but I’m glad I’ve gotten so far” with “I am trash, my work is trash, and you shouldn’t be complimenting anything I make”. There is a difference.

you can’t wonder why no one doesn’t bother to look when you have been constant in telling them “don’t bother looking”

Basically everything I was trying to say right there.

[therealbereth]

If you're not at least a little happy with it and can't say "I think this bit is good" or "I like this about my work" you shouldn't put it out there.

Oh well, you know... I think there's two layers here, actually.

If a creator really wants to improve for their audience, if they want to gain readers or even fans on their way, if they want to sell a product: then, yes, putting something out there and then putting it DOWN all the time ain't gonna do much to achieve that goal.

Then there's the people who simply create for fun. Or as an outlet. Or because they just can't help it. Demanding the same standards of them as one might do from people who really want to build an audience might just be a tad too much—and unfair.

If I were to create only for these reasons, then it would be enough to have some friends around me (or gain them through my work) who then did kinda agree to the emotional labor I'm putting on them when I self-deprecate all the time (or "just" often).

I think this might be a distinction we ought to make.

[yansusu]

I think the OP was quite clear with what they meant. Or at least I understood the responses to that in the same way

Another point I thought of: If it's not in direct response to what a reader says (like in comments or maybe private messages), then maybe artists that don't really know how to balance this whole self-deprecation/self-appreciation thing could try to focus more on the content of their work than on the creative aspect (for starters)?
Like things happen in the story and regardless of how you write/draw it, you can still talk about these things. So if somebody is unsure how to deal with the rest, maybe interacting with readers more on a content-layer would be helpful in the beginning.

[HGohwell]

Perhaps it's just me, but I can't imagine why anyone would put something they honestly think is absolutely terrible on the internet. I have hundreds of sketches and pieces of writing that I've done that I haven't shared because I don't think they're good but I felt the need at the time. Why are you putting it on the internet if you genuinely believe it's awful? I think this is often why self-depreciation often comes off as attention seeking more than confidence. I think it's a lot to do with putting a piece's worth on the amount of attention it gets. It comes across as people going "I think it's good enough to post but I need validation so I'm going to say it's awful so you'll all have sympathy and tell me it's not". I'm sure this is often subconscious and I'm not saying this is always the case, but to a perfect stranger this is how it can come off.

[yansusu]

I was wondering about that too but thought it might be a generational thing. Young people these days *cough* tend to put a lot online so maybe they're not really reflecting on that and just do it because they're doing it with everything else too and see other people doing the same?

[HGohwell]

That's very possible. I know some people have moved towards putting their sketches and failed pieces online to help build positivity as well. And I totally see where they're coming from with this. By popular artists putting their failed pieces up, the can demonstrate that not every piece even they do is perfect. Not every piece you do will be amazing. For every incredible piece there's probably 3 or 4 failed attempts or concepts, because there is a pressure on younger artists for every piece to be great because every piece their elders/betters produce (that they see) is perfect. The problem is that you have to be very clear "this a scrapped piece that didn't work and I want to show my process" which is positive rather than "this is awful".

[therealbereth]

I think this is often why self-depreciation often comes off as attention seeking more than confidence.

Well, this evaluation comes entirely from you.

And there's nothing wrong with attention-seeking, especially when you're struggling to accept yourself. Even if you put down yourself all the time, seeing others doing the exact opposite can help a lot in starting to believe it yourself over time.

You mentioned behavioral therapy, so I assume you must have some kind of knowledge about the human psyche. Then you should also know that not everyone has the strength (yet) to challenge their thought patterns by themselves. And that's where "putting yourself out there" comes in. Humans have an innate desire to be seen by others. Even if our mind tells ourselves all the time that we or our work are trash, that does not negate that desire.

[vothnthorvaldson]

Perhaps it's just me, but I can't imagine why anyone would put something they honestly think is absolutely terrible on the internet.

I don't think it's that though.
I think the creator hopes it's good enough, but is afraid to receive harsh critics, so they prefer to critic themselves first, thus avoiding ridicule.
I'm not 100% sure, as I don't have this way to think, but that's what I read between lines sometimes when creators are really harsh on themselves.

And when I think of it, I do feel a tiny bit this way sometimes. Eg. When I clearly made a stupid mistake difficult to correct (having a door opening in the wrong direction in my comic), I felt like putting a note to say I'm aware of that, because I think people will think I'm really dumb to not notice; however I don't actually write this note and then I forgot, because who cares...
I'm sure a lot of people have these small moments of doubt and wanting to notify people of such doubt; and in my opinion, the self depreciating creator is only a more extreme version of that.

[therealbereth]

I think the creator hopes it's good enough, but is afraid to receive harsh critics, so they prefer to critic themselves first, thus avoiding ridicule.

This, basically.

If you take the wind out of their sails, they can't hurt you anymore with anything they say. At least, that's the dynamic behind it. Their words will still hurt if they're negative, but you've braced yourself for them.

[HGohwell]

Ok perhaps I more personal example will help here just to make myself clear about what I'm saying:

This is the latest art post on my personal twitter. It's a warm up piece. It's not amazing. It took an hour and I haven't refined it. But I like it.

The caption with it: I really like how Mizuki's (in white) hair turned out.
The response generally: you're right her hair looks lovely
Meanwhile internally: Kouyou's jaw is awful, I hate drawing lips, what are hands, the lighting sucks, her dress doesn't stand against the background too much, can you tell those are flowers

The point is, I'm aware of the faults, but by saying "I like this aspect" I draw other people's attention to the positives and I feel better when they affirm the positives. Where as if I'd posted and gone "this is hideous" I'd imagine more than one follower would question why I posted it publicly. It doesn't take much to pick out something you like and it can improve both you and your reader/viewers view of things.

[HGohwell]

And there's nothing wrong with attention-seeking, especially when you're struggling to accept yourself. Even if you put down yourself all the time, seeing others doing the exact opposite can help a lot in starting to believe it yourself over time.

It certainly can, but the flip side is that seeks constant validation from strangers on the internet can be a very damaging and addictive thing. Your own self worth shouldn't be derived from the number of retweets your art has after all.