How can a good guy finish first?

[meimei]

I wrote a romance comic that features two love interests: a friendly guy and one that objectifies the female protagonist from the moment they meet. I deliberately wrote one of the guys to be a womanizing asshole with some redeeming qualities, but ultimately not enough to be end game. Problem is that he's way more popular than the friendly guy. I even asked women why they like him and they say that the bad boy persona always wins compared to the nice guy.

I felt discouraged because I've seen other creators who write about bad boys and they got so popular so quickly and they're making so much money. I personally don't care about being rich, but I want to be able to do art full time but I don't want to change the bad boy to be end game. To me that feels disingenuous because that rarely ever works out in reality. I don't know what to do. How can I change the friendly guy to be more attractive (if not equality attractive) to the womanizer without making them too similar or at the expense of the bad boy character?

[SilentHamster102]

Good guy always finish last, doesn't it's how the things work IRL ? At least I always thought so. If it's not necessary to keep things realistic, maybe "deus ex machina" will work, nothing else comes to my mind

[vothnthorvaldson]

If it was popular in romance stories to jump off cliffs and die or spend the rest of one's time in horrible suffering, would you write that?

Harmful trends are just trends; people read them because that's what available, and it reinforces their impression that it's normal or good; but there are many people who are disgusted or even horrified by such trends, and would will be happy to read a story with some common sense and better example.

Also, IRL, in all my traveling, I only saw this attraction for destructive relationships being popular mostly at specific geographical places; on the Internet you have the chance to reach a large public with various views on the question.

[Darkstrong]

People always confuse "Good guy" and "Shy guy" of "Weak guy". A good guy can be confident, charismatic, strong, witty and badass. A weakling will finish last, regardless of being good of bad. Make your character good AND cool, not OR.

[ble]

I don't know the answer, but here's a video about that topic:

[Darkstrong]

I am actually listening to his other lecture right this moment =))

[DiegoPalacios]

Boring guys finish last. Not good guys.

The thing is that most people make the good guy a generic boring character, so it doesn`t have any appeal.

In general a well written character will become more appealing. If the good guy`s only trait is that he is good, then he will come as generic and empty.
There are different ways to make a character attractive, not only the sexy path.

Maybe the good guy`s charm could be being cute, like the kind of guy with who girls would enjoy cuddling while watching a movie or maybe he is such a gentleman with a smooth side. Or maybe he is a charming intellectual or a fun guy to be around who can cheer you up in tough moments but knows when to take something seriously. Attractiveness comes in many ways, and bad guy is not inherently attractive.

In my comic i did a poll for best girl. It turns out the good girl won instead of the sexy bad girl (both are really popular). But the good one won because i also gave her some personality. For her, i didn`t aimed for sexyness, i aimed for cuteness.

(maybe the other one may have won if she had more screen time, it would be interesting to make another poll after both characters appear more often)

For more details about attractiveness you can see some answers in this tread about what makes characters have fangirls/fanboys

Hi everyone, so i was just curious about it....what makes a character sexy, but i am more interested in terms of personality. I know a good artist can make a character phisically atractive, but what makes a character's personality atractive?. Are there any common elements?, why do they get fangirls/fanboys?

[Azifri]

Sadly I'm not surprise. I mean, there is a webtoon that I'm reading where there is what seems at first to be a love triangle. One guy (vampire) enthralls the MC girl and rapes her repeatedly, but she can't resist because she's under his influx, in a sort of twisted romantic relationship. When she finally escapes with the help of a really nice guy (also a well written character), readers were bombarding the comment section with garbage like bring back her bf, miss him, etc. The author even put in a scene where the girl spelled out that she was being abused, but readers ignored it. After that I lost faith in romance comic readers.

[vothnthorvaldson]

After that I lost faith in romance comic readers.

Pretty much the same, however, it enrages me so much that in a way it makes me want to write romance to propose more healthy stuff. But I'm not that good at writing romance, so I can't imagine having romance as a main story plot.
We need more good, healthy, interesting romance.

[TJSchongar]

I'm gonna use Loki and Thor for my examples in my explanation of what I think you could do to get what you want out of the situation. (Spoilers if you haven't seen any Avengers movies.)

Thor is our "good" guy, Loki is THE quintessential "bad" boy that all the girls scream over. Here's what you're facing up against:
1) Taking away the fact that he betrays everyone over and over and OVER, Loki has a LOT of appealing characteristics. He's witty, sarcastic, defiant, driven, and complex. These are all neutral character elements, and the combination of all five makes for a FANTASTIC character to follow along with. People have even pointed out that Tom Hiddleston, the actor, isn't nearly as 'conventionally' attractive as Chris Hemsworth, but he still outshines his co-actor in THOR movies because of who he plays. Not only that, but there's room for growth. When you pair a guy who has a lot of good things about him with the potential to be so much better than he is, potential to have that "I dun wrong, and I'm gonna make it better" moment - people love a redemption arc. Bad boys are pre-packaged to hit a lot of sweet spots.

2) Thor was...let's admit it, just a liiiiiiittle bit boring. I say was - when did it change? (Not Dark World, bleh...) It was in Ragnarok. When he became truly funny (adding to his depth of character), and when he was ACTUALLY brought low and had some serious things to face. They tried to humble him in the first movie, it sorta worked, but Ragnarok REALLY made Thor have to go through some stuff. Now, admittedly, Thor always had a little bit of bad boy in him because of his defiance, but he was still the golden child. The obvious protagonist. I came to like him much more as a character than Loki (and I LOVE me some good villains) when he became less of a protagonist and more of just a person. Someone who was good but who was genuinely and relatably flawed. Someone who was trying their best but who had potential and a LOT of room to grow - just like Loki did.

So the answer? I would suggest not changing your bad boy and reexamining your good boy. Is he TOO good? Does he have enough flaws? Maybe there can be more opportunities to put the guys head-to-head, not for the girl, but for the sake of their values? Do that, and you have two guys who are both fighting for something, the battlefield is level, and the audience has to root for one or the other. When Thor and Loki butt heads, of course people want Loki to get some vindication, but ultimately we want Thor to win. It's even better when THOR wants that same vindication for Loki, too, but just can't give it to him.

That's my drawn-out brain dump. Hopefully it provides something to think about!

[MK_Wizard]

The reason good guys don't finish first is because they gain experience, learn from their mistakes and see who their real friends are before finishing properly. As opposed to the bad boy who gets everything, but also loses everything fast sooner or later. Good people take their time and take slower because they take time to do things right and sometimes, that means going back and fixing things. Bad boys get the girl fast, but they never learned how to keep her or grow up. To make matters worse, the girls do grow up while the bad boy never does.

So when you stop and think about it, the finishing first or last is a false mentality. There's only one way to really finish and that's right which is the way the good guy does it every time. I can vouch as a woman who's married to the good guy. We married as full grown adults who knew what were doing unlike the bad boys in high school who left girls with horror stories. Most of them either knocked up these girls and ran, abused them or got them involved in nothing but trouble.

The bad boy doesn't "win" because he winds up alone and hated. That's not a win. That's worse than not getting the girl at all because at least a good guy who is alone still has his dignity and friends.

[Jenny-Toons]

Basically @MK_Wizard hit it on the mark.

And if it helps to understand the reason for "bad boy's popularity", it's the fantasy of it. Your readers don't necessarily want a bad boy in real life. They just like the fantasy of the bad boy. They like that appeal, and they get that appeal via entertainment media. It's a fantasy fulfillment.

It becomes unhealthy when they try to find it in real life, though. As @MK_Wizard said -- most "bad boys" either don't learn from their mistakes or they do and turn into "good guys".

At the end of the day, you personally know what's right for your story and what's right for the endgame. If you think your MC and the good guy deserve each other, then write that ending. You might lose some readers, but you may also lose readers for choosing the "bad boy ending" too.

Losing readers will happen, whether you try to appease them or not, so just write the best story you can.

(Note: Let it be known that when I say "good guys", I do not reference "nice guys" nor do I include them in my post. "Nice Guys" are just assholes and are a completely different topic of its own.)

[MK_Wizard]

I would like to see a bad boy and good guy story that shows this realistically.

[simplykit]

maybe if the good guy dies doing really unbelievably good, like self sacrifice or something???

oh wait this was for a romance type story....ummm

maybe if the good guy was a perfect good guy but with a really dark secret

[spadesart]

i think its the idea of a bad boy that has a soft spot and 'changes' for you or treats only you like a queen. its why i think a lot of people are attracted to villains tbh.

id look to make sure the friendly guy doesnt seem bland in comparison or like he has an ulterior motive. a lot of irl 'im a nice guy' types expect sex in return just for being friendly so the target audience might be turned off if he resembles that. and id look at his design too, if hes a run of the mill milquetoast blonde boy who wears pastels he might just be less intriguing than the bad boy design wise. if thats the case id try to develop more of a personal flair to him, take his interests and personality and reflect that in his clothes.

[Likri]

Well, what is the female MC view on them? You said they are both love interests, but how are they fleshed out? Did the girl fall for the same "bad boy" charm your readers did? Is the "nice guy" average boy next door she knew her whole life and is so predictable to her? I think you really have to put them up against the moral values of the girl in the story - give the nice one something she values more on a basic moral level, than the enfatuation with the bad boy who sparks short term interest. Or just push the boundaries of his badness to unredeemable territory for the heroine - a lot of women are indoctrinated into accepting womanization on some level, but she can get more defensive for mistreatment of those around her or overall lack of charitable traits. It's a bit hard to pinpoint what would work, without much details to the characters.

It's kinda like many viewers readers will be up to a bad boy - but if he hurts someone conciderably weaker or an animal, it's a full heel turn of sympathy and he can burn in hell.
And if you want to change the good guy - give him depth, passions (not necessary to the girl), something that the girl can share or appreciate in him beyond the general "he's nice" level.

Also, this doesn't mean the audience will switch sides, but it doesn't have to - I personally loved a lot of characters I wouldn't dream in a nightmare to actually meet irl. Or at least, when met, not great with a throat punch.

[spadesart]

jordan peterson thinks forced marriage would decrease domestic violence and is a huge transphobe and climate change denier so im kinda reluctant to take anything he says into consideration, especially on this topic.

[sarrowsmith10]

I'm currently reading:

Let's Play

It's a slice of life romance story. The good guy Link (long blonde hair), is like the perfect example of "good guy" who is well loved by fans. He isn't boring. He is strong, kind, patient, and is a healing type character. (He literally is an EMT in the story)

Of course there isn't really a bad guy in this story either, although there are shades of questionable morals I suppose.

[sushy00]

I find it remarkable to refer to persons as "good guys" and "bad guys". No one is 100% good or 100% bad. We all have good and bad sides. The person that you think of as "good" or "bad" is probably unknown to you.

[Luminosophy]

Problem is that he's way more popular than the friendly guy. I even asked women why they like him and they say that the bad boy persona always wins compared to the nice guy.

It's because confidence is attractive, at the end of the day that's all it is. Too many guys are too scared to approach women and treat them normally, or will otherwise never want to make a move out of fear of rejection or being perceived as "disrespectful". If you like a girl and never tell her, vs a guy who does but treats her not the best, the only message she's being sent is that one guy is interested and the other isn't.