How can a good guy finish first?

[Likri]

We are talking about characters (which their creator does know to the core) and the archetypes they present - so, sure they need to be complex to be interesting, and they can be the "bastard with a heart of gold" or "nice guy with a hidden agenda", but really, stories can have ireadeamable scum and sparkling heroes, if they fit the tone and genre the author goes for.

[vothnthorvaldson]

If you like a girl and never tell her, vs a guy who does but treats her not the best, the only message she's being sent is that one guy is interested and the other isn't.

Sure, but the logical way from there is ignoring both.

[joannekwan]

Like some great points made above, make your 'good guy' interesting.

Take the Hunger Games for example (the movies, not the books, since I haven't read them).
Peeta was hella boring and the milquetoast blonde boy (thanks for bringing that term up @stnmaren x] ). He didn't have an interesting bone in his body nor was he at all charming. His overall character was very bland.
Gale was slightly more interesting, since he seemed to be more driven and stubborn, especially in the final movies.

Now the male character I did really like was Haymitch (ignore the fact that he wasn't a love interest). He had a clear personality. He was cynical and jaded, but he still looked out for the kids. Yes he can be kinda blunt and drinks a bit much, but you could definitely inject those attributes into your 'good guy' and he can still be your 'good guy' so long as he is morally and ethically good and treats your protagonist right.

I'm working through a similar situation as yourself. My protagonist will ultimately end up with the 'good guy' so I'm making him as charming as can be with some character faults.

[Luminosophy]

???
What are you even talking about.

[vothnthorvaldson]

Simply stating that if someone is confronted to:
- a person who does not show interest (regardless of the fact that they are actually interested or not) and
- a person who show interest but treat them badly;
their best option is to go on their way.

[LittleMissDevil]

Well, good guys finish first in real life all the time, so just be on the lookout for interesting, funny, lovable relationships in your circle of friends to inspire you. While you shouldn't copy real life couples it can be a nice inspiration for mannerisms between couples or just give you an idea of what nice people find attractive in one another. You can also look to media you enjoy for that, with couples you personally found interesting.

Many have said that your nice character needs to have interesting or captivating character traits, so I didn't wanna repeat it. I just wanted to give some advice on where to find inspiration ^^

[Louhi]

Like said before but the simple answer is that confidence is sexy. Why do you think girls date assholes irl? Because they probably have that confidence, if you think your character deserves the girl just because he's a "good guy" then you're approaching the romance wrong. A lot of people are good people in fact being a nice is even expected by default, that does not make him so special. Also interesting romance is born from obstacles, good couples help each other grow and mature. Sure you cannot change the other person but if you care for that person and they care for you, you most likely want to become the best partner that you can be. It seems like your bad guy has the ingredients to redeem himself but what does the good guy have?

[JackOfArtAndProse]

Don't lose all faith! I myself like romance stories quite a lot, but I absolutely despise "bad boys" and find the trope's popularity quite scary. In the end, it's all about what kind of fanbase and niche one writes for. And even if the bad boy/girl were the most popular character in your story, you can still write it the way you intended - the readers are reading it for your way of perceiving the world, not for it to have a cliche approach to storytelling.

@meimei If you don't truly believe that a good guy can finish first, it'll be hard for you to write it convincingly. I would recommend looking into healthy relationships and why the female chose the good guy instead of the bad boy. Usually, the good guy will still exhibit some masculine traits(protectiveness, providing, etc.) even if they're overshadowed by the bad boy's immense charisma. Don't fall in the trap of thinking that nice guys can't finish first - just figure out whether the nice guy that you're writing about is the kind of guy you'd fall for yourself. You don't have to write him all suave and charismatic - just give him actual personality traits that are attractive, since that way you can turn him into a serious contender for the MC girl's heart.

EDIT: From what I've seen in real life, sweetness/caring attitude can also be attractive in a man, but such people have sometimes trouble cutting off the sweet valves when it comes to other persons that their main love interest. This is a common and sensible dilemma for the "good guy" - how to be nice to other people without making the love interest feel like she isnt special. In real life, I'd say that the good guy would seriously need to cut down on the expressions of warmth he shows towards other women(aside from family members, of course) but retain the same kind of helpful mentality. Mind you, this is a trope that is showcased a lot in romance fiction, and I've VERY rarely seen the writer solve it in this way. Mostly in comics, wishy-washy attitudes are justified by authors all the way until the end. As you can imagine, it can get quite aggravating. On the other hand, it appeals to people who're less confident(and I get that), but a story about an unconfident man, and his rise from insecurity to responsibility, could be even more potent in the long run, especially considering its possible impact on people's lives.

[skicoak]

Of course there isn't really a bad guy in this story either, although there are shades of questionable morals I suppose.

I love LET'S PLAY.

I totally agree there's no "bad guy", I would even argue the "questionable morals" are simply a product of readers trying on the various suitors for Sam according to their own biases.

As to the OP question...

How can I change the friendly guy to be more attractive (if not equality attractive) to the womanizer without making them too similar or at the expense of the bad boy character?

My opinion... subtraction is the key.

Remove wit/humor from the womanizer. Resist the temptation to let them engage in clever banter. Give them pick up lines they use over and over, crude double entendres and clumsy psychological manipulation. Humor is attractive... don't let them have it.

Remove confidence from the womanizer. Don't let it be a Casanova situation... let it be the more realistic situation, the womanizer just takes a lot more shots at random women. He hits on women that mean nothing to him, so he doesn't care he got rejected 99 times to get one bite.

And finally, remove the chance of redemption. The redemptive arc is a tiger trap. Good writers try to give the womanizer depth so they don't come off as two dimensional/cartoonish. But that leads to readers magnifying certain aspects to build their "ships". Give the womanizer depth but only aspects that have little to no redemptive value.

[Zaboem]

"How can I make the Nice Guy more attractive...?"

I think you just answered your own question there. Make him attractive by being attractive. No one says that the Nice Guy cannot also be the Pretty Boy. It wouldn't be unreasonable to blatantly state this in the story. "She felt that Bad Boy was a 7 out of 10. Nice Guy was a solid 9, but it's too bad he was unattainable. Le sigh." A little more subtly would be better, but you get the idea.

[meimei]

Thank you all for your replies. It's given me a lot to think about. I edited the main post to give a more detailed look into what kind of guys we're dealing with.

Personally, the more I write about them, the less attracted I feel to both of them. Though I really like @TJSchongar 's post and his description of Loki (I always wondered why he was vastly more popular than Thor). It's kind of funny though how my description of the "good" guy is closer to Loki than Thor's personality.

@DiegoPalacios also makes a great point. I feel my "good" guy is boring compared to the "bad" guy since a character is more interesting when it's tougher for them to change and do the "right" thing. I think that's why Batman is more popular and more attractive to women than Superman. It's easy for Superman to do good, whereas Batman has to struggle not to take the Joker's life. However, there was that one time that Superman killed the Joker out of vengeance and that made him infinitely more sexy and interesting to me. That was the most human he's ever felt to me.

[YuiChan]

Hi ^^/, so I have been reading the topic so far and If I am allowed to give my 2 cents as a reader (not a writer) pov.

Based on ur description on each guy, I can't help myself to be attracted to the bad guy somehow. There's some reasons in it:
1. Most romance reader are like 90% girls ( if not more), and women have this "strange/unique" psychology traits over "bad boys/ a.k.a bad guy"

Why Do Women Fall for Bad Boys?

Do women really go for 'bad boys'? Here's the science that settles the question

maybe those links can help a bit. There's also that sense of "I hope I can change you to be a better man" ideas that sometimes some women have, which cause them to go for the bad guys.
2. For me the bad guy character somewhat stronger and have more impact than the good guy (with all the background story, etc) compared to the good guy..I haven't read your comic just yet tho, this is only based on your description only.
3. And third it's probably the reader have this "it's just in the story" and "I am allowed to have my fantasy" points, as in they will pick the bad guy in anytime of the day as long it stays in the fantasy world. In real I doubt they will choose the bad guy for their life partner.

I myself like Loki more than Thor ... why, because it's simple, he has something that Thor doesn't, An interesting character with all his wits and cunning style.

So how to make them love the Good Guy more and let him win? Can't really tell how, (because I havent read your comic n I cant give ideas on something I don't really know much) but maybe put more layer on the good guy, make him more interesting than the bad guy, don't make him straight focused on the MC (main girl), some people say sometimes you have to lose someone completely before you can figure out what they really mean to you, or something like that.
Okay.... that's my two cents, Sorry if this is not helping much...

[meimei]

Actually this is really helpful. It tells me that I need to really work on my good guy if he's going to beat a guy with much more outward confidence. I think I might try rewriting him completely, but I will probably maintain his quiet confidence since it will help him contrast against he bad boy. I realize I gave the bad boy way too much ammunition because I just wanted to make the guy who gets with the MC to be more "normal" and realistic.

Bad guy dresses really well and shows off his wealth, he does crazy shit, and just shocks women with his words and behavior. Good guy is kind, helpful, and is attentive but when I asked a girl about him, she said the good guy seems too available and friendly. She says it seems like the MC friend-zoned him from the beginning which is true, but technically they friend-zoned each other since the guy already has a GF but the MC doesn't know that yet.

When the MC meets the good guy, there's no sexual tension whereas with the bad guy, there's sexual tension from the moment he lays eyes on her. I think that's where I went wrong, so now I'm trying to figure out how to salvage this or if I should just start over.

[kip]

I didn’t have time to read the comments (sorry!)
but from your descriptions, it sounds a lot more like the ‘good guy’ is just boring in comparison.
he has absolutely no conflict in his personality, so there’s really no reason for us to root for him?

the ‘bad guy’ has a traumatic past, illicit relationships, a complex and contradicting personality.
it sounds like the ‘good guy’ is just a bit of a mary sue. i feel like what he’s missing is just something in his personality to be a bit controversial, to make us root for him?
that’s why ‘good guy’ characters are often ‘underdogs’. it’s not the only way to go ofc, it definitely doesn’t fit here, but it’s an example towards what can be loaded onto their character to make them more interesting and relatable without taking away from them being good

[meimei]

I think you're right. I have an idea of what I want to do, but I think it'll be a really hard sell. Mind if PM you? I don't want to brainstorm too many ideas publicly that could become spoilers.

[beta1042]

Didn't read all the replies here, but I still want to chime in- so sorry if some of this repeats.

There are plenty of classic good-guy traits/tropes that make the character lovable. There are also qualities that some women just eat up. I mean there is a reason cinnamon roll characters are so popular. Here are some that pop into mind

-Guy is good with children/loved by animals/takes care of the eldery/homeless/etc
-Guy has a good relationship with his mother or sister
-Guy has a passion project/hobby that he is actually really talented at - but is humble enough that never brags about it to anyone and it is discovered later on in the story.
-Guy is passionate about a career goal
-Guy is physically hot when he is topless (you gotta come up with a good excuse for slipping this in tho XD)
-Guy is strong- physically or emotionally when there is a crisis

Some general things to keep in mind - it's good for the character to have more to their life than just the interest in the female lead. Things that are important to him but also helps to develop his character and personality. Things that help convince the reader that he is in fact a good guy. but also women tend to like guys who can provide a sense of safety and comfort.

[kip]

wouldn’t mind at all, go ahead !

[KittyHamilton]

Haven't read all the replies, but chiming in anyway.

The thing about a love triangle as an element of the story is that it's actually about the person in the middle. Choosing person A or person B is actually about the chooser making a final decision about their values. The Female Lead doesn't just choose the Bad Boy With a Troubled Past over the Boy Next Door because he's hotter and rides a motorcycle. She does it because her character arc is about her breaking from the normal life expected from her and finding freedom. (As a hypothetical example) Revolution v Tradition, Stability v Fleeting Pleasure, Honesty v Performance etc, etc.

In other words, it can't just be a competition between two love interests. Generally, they have to appeal to different parts of the choosing character's personality/values/psychology. Otherwise, the audience will just root for whomever they personally like better, or the one who seems the most interesting.

Unfortunately, the more damaged the character, the more dramatic the relationship. And audiences like drama and redemption arcs. Nice, stable, characters without issues? They are great people in real life, but not as fun to read about.