Dec 2024
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kyupol
Dec '24
BoomerZ

I took art fundamentals. They did an entry art test.
- draw a hand
- draw a bedroom
- draw your fruit of choice
- draw anything you want.

When I entered art fundamentals, my skill level was this:

A year later of art fundamentals...

As you can see, even with that improvement, still not good enough for animation program.
So I was told to study art more and try again in a couple years. But I ended up getting discouraged and just did something else.

So yes. Before entering any college level art program...

Your skill should be bare minimum this... (in my opinion correct me if I'm wrong)

Ideally this when you start art college...

And when you're done art college... this.

thepenmonster
Dec '24

This is something artists downplay because a paining is supposed to be above something as pedestrian as carpentry, but both fields of education are teaching a trade. In fine arts that trade is selling tax evasion methods for rich people.

This.

My local art school, (NSCAD) used to require a portfolio and I assume they still do. Not to show how well you could draw something, but to show how willing and able you are to try and make all sorts of art. Obviously because one of those art forms could eventually make them a living.

I will say, if kids think "anime style" is unwelcome now, their application would have been binned immediately back in the day no matter how nice their watercolour of a big tiddy anime girl was.

jwabeasley
Dec '24

In fine arts that trade is selling tax evasion methods for rich people.

Realizing that was what made me give up the art career goal!

jwabeasley
Dec '24
kyupol

As long as we're posting schoolwork, here's some of mine (same medium for easy comparison).

11th grade:

Mid-college:

This year:

Zhengo
Dec '24

I'm only half joking about this, but you wrote a really long post with hypothetical scenarios and imagined backstories about a video maker you don't seem to know personally. And then went on a diatribe about "art schooling", which you seem to have not personally experienced. All that text to...I guess ask if and how we would tell someone if their skills suck? I wouldn't have pointed this out in any other post, but since the title is what it is...I'm wondering how to break it to you that you should be more succinct in the point of your discussion :stuck_out_tongue:

On to the topic of discussion - If they ask me directly, then I will be honest about it, and provide my advice on how I think it can be improved, or if it's in a skill I'm not well-versed in, provide my critique clearly on specific parts that I think looks/sounds bad to me. Maybe it's because I've attended many art critique sessions where it's always made a point that a good critique is one that is specific and clear, highlighting parts of the art piece, and I personally do not find this critique exercise very hard. And I've used this principle in every critique I give out in both art and non-art related discord servers without having experienced any big grief or drama from the artist.

There's no "agonizing" on my part either as I just use the base minimum politeness of no insults or mocking. I guess the most I do to try to avoid hurt feelings is that I try to find some part of the piece that I like and also point it out to them as a compliment, but this isn't really me trying to avoid hurt feelings so much as I feel it is also important to point out the good parts as much as the bad parts. I think it gives them "guidance" on what their strengths are and can build upon them. If they are not aware of their current strengths, there is a good possibility that they might end up leaving it behind.

Obviously, if the critiques handed out are just a very vague "this looks bad", then no matter how polite you deliver that sentiment, it is not productive at all, dare I say it's a waste of time for you and the person asking for the critique. On the other hand, if the critique is clear and specific, then the base minimum amount of politeness is all that's needed.

DokiDokiTsuna
Dec '24
1

1] The only 'hypothetical scenario' I came up with was one sentence asking why someone wouldn't be honest with a friend/family member about their lack of skill, and another sentence implying that my perspective of their skill level might be limited (which is less of a hypothetical and more of a truth of reality that needs to be addressed). All the rest was direct observations. =/ About multiple creators, by the way.

2] Although I have never been to an art school or taken university-level art courses myself, I personally know people who have. Just because I didn't write about them in the post doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about.

3] I preface a lot of my posts with personal anecdotes and explanations of why I started thinking about the discussion question. I've written that way for literal years; "all that text" is basically my middle name, and I've never had cause to be ashamed of it before. I'm...pretty sure you've been around this forum long enough to know that. ._. Did it suddenly become a problem today...? No one's forcing you to read it all; replying directly to the parts you found relevant and ignoring the rest (without telling me...) is valid.

If you referenced the title for a reason, and you genuinely think verbosity indicates a lack of communication skill that needs to be pointed out to me, you could just...say that. I'd disagree, especially since it seems like you kinda just skimmed over most of what I wrote (i.e. 'too many words' =/= irrelevant information) but I'd prefer it to you making inaccurate judgements about what you think I said, without actually knowing what I said.

...This really doesn't feel like a joke, tbh. Not even 'half' a joke.

EncryptedWriting
Dec '24
BoomerZ

Now this is interesting. I majored in public health and a minor in bio, and while it is okay to not know some material at the start, it's the idea that fundamentals build off of another. So, if you dont grasp the inital concepts, then you can't build off of them.

The same goes for art, I assume. If you don't grasp thise fundamentals, then there is no point in learning further on because you don't understand the basics anyway.

BoomerZ
Dec '24

It would be like going to college to learn to read then using that skill of reading to learn your major. It's a lot easier if you show up knowing how to read.

lizardlullabye
Dec '24

Ah, . . . short answer is that you do should not tell someone they are "not good enough".
That specifically vague phrase can hurt a lot because it "can" be interpreted as depressively negative.

good enough for what? for who? for forever? :cry_01:

Assuming the artist asked for critque & feedback, perhaps just make sure you are "specific" when you share your observations/ thoughts. The artist can judge what they want to do:

  • Keep in mind that you do NOT know what the artist is trying to do, unless they have shared. For example, you might think the artist is trying to draw a cool national geographic dinosuar while they are actually attempting to draw a mutant chicken nugget. Any critque or communication starting on wrong assumptions will likely end up in a frustrating misunderstanding.

  • Neutrally share what "you" are interpreting / observing. The artist is likely seeing it in a different perspective. For example, despite the artist's best efforts of one chicken nugget, you shared seeing a dinosuar with sparkly eyes and scales.

  • This might imply that artist's current skill is not working out with what they are trying to do. In the case of chicken nugget example, there's a difference between what is shared and what the artist wants to share. BUT they can try again and hopefully get better/ more skilled later.

Lensing
Dec '24

You don´t break it to someone and you don´t even think about it because it´s none of your business

GothickangelStudios
Dec '24
KevinReijnders

I went to art for collage, did graphic design, interactive media, website design etc, they didn't do any testing.
Where I am in Canada as long as you had your grade 12 highschool (or grade 13 in that era) diploma it was fine. And could read and write english fluenty, you were set. Didn't even need to show them an art portfolio.
I took art as my major in highschool. Did animation, website design, desktop publishing (90s era) and illustration. But all they cared about was if had my diploma.
It was more for theory based courses like science, math, history, etc. That had pretesting in college.

Zhengo
Dec '24
DokiDokiTsuna

Just for the record, I did read the whole post :laughing: I actually originally wrote a longer thing about imagining yourself as the casting director and then a whole paragraph wondering if anyone in their life actually told them or if they'll find out in 5-10 years or if they're just off key in their videos, when it could've been a "I wonder if anyone actually told them", but felt like it was detracting too much from discussion.

Genuinely, I apologize if that offended you, frankly I just thought it felt a little uncomfortable that your example seemed to be of someone that you don't even know for sure if they've been made aware of their flaws. Posting a less than good video of their singing or trying auditions doesn't indicate that they're sheltered from opinions, just that they're ambitious enough to want to try anyway.

Since you also brought up the art school thing, I only called that out because your statement seemed quite "broad strokes" and seemed to miss the real reason why art degree majors can have below professional skills: wide variation of quality and teaching philosophy across art programs. In my, admittedly only 2.5 years experience, with art and design in college, a good art program will have professors that will definitely give you a big roast and won't leave you naive to your own lack of skill, and your grades will also reflect that. People have failed and had to repeat courses. The sad thing is, there are a lot of art schools that are basically just degree mills and won't even teach you the "potential" of becoming good. It is harder to detect than say, science schools because in science, there's a clear right or wrong answer to things.

All of this was what I thought about reading the post, but at that time I figured it wasn't that relevant to the discussion so I didn't expand on this at the time and wanted to keep my feeling on that light. I much more wanted to tackle the actual question in the title, which seemed to be a question on how to make someone aware of their lack of skill.

Zhengo
Dec '24

I also wanted to point out that being high skilled at one aspect of art doesn't mean you are high skilled at every aspect of art, and vice versa. I honestly feel like a lot of people have misconceptions on skilling up in art and that being good at one aspect (say, anatomy) means that you are also good at all other aspects. Like, a person may struggle at figure drawing but may have a good eye for composition or color. Also, a lot of people may appear high skilled at drawing figures, but it may turn out their understanding of anatomy is actually quite low and only know how to draw one body type for figures. The average person may never notice this skill issue because the only thing that artist posts publicly is beautiful pictures of people of exactly one body type.

This is why being specific on critiques is important. A blanket statement of "you're not good enough" will not help them recognize the weakest points of their techniques. Chances are they will keep going about their day not properly learning and practicing the things they need to learn and practice.

BoomerZ
Dec '24

Another problem with comics specifically is you have to be good at a lot of skill sets. A fine artist can hide in their specialty. Comics, more so if you are a one-man-band, means you have to be good at character/anatomy (including expression, all angles, etc) and backgrounds, writing, dialogue, composition, story structure, coloring and color theory, and many other things that go into comics.

simplykit
Dec '24

keep at it! you can do better! improve yourself little by little, your skills might not be what you want right now, might not be tomorrow, a week, a month, even years from now... but one day you'll get there! DONT STOP! :relaxed:

Zhengo
Dec '24
BoomerZ

This is an interesting point. One of my favorite manga is Mob Psycho 100, and I wouldn't really call the art (specifically anatomy-wise and perspective) there "good", but ONE is quite skilled at composition, and of course I think the writing is great. Conversely, there are also a lot of comics with beautiful art but rather middling story and sometimes confusing panel composition.

Ironically because of this, I think with comics, it is even more important to just go out and make them, pitch them to publishers if you want. I think if someone's dream is to make comics, they shouldn't be stuck in a perpetual state of practice because they think they need to be "good enough". Plenty of people have succeeded without having maxed all skill sets needed in comics, so at the end of the day, it's worth a shot putting yourself out there regardless. Even if it doesn't pan out, you can say you grew from the experience.

BoomerZ
Dec '24

I will go one further and say you will never master any of the skill sets of making a comics. But you will also never know what you don't know unless you just sit down and make one. You can do pin-up drawing for 10-20 years and it wouldn't prepare yourself for making a comic. Your first try won't be perfect, but your 100th try won't be either. So might as well start now.

Lensing
Dec '24
Zhengo

There is no doubt that you have to start making sequential art to get good at making
sequential art

But I also think many artists would benefit from taking breaks in between comics and work
on their skills before jumping into the next comic project