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Mar 2020

Hi folks!

Question: How do you create your own fight scenes (if your comic requires it of course)? Do you just invent the movements without caring with any technical aspects or do you really investigate out there some martial artist sequences?

I'm asking this because after posting a very basic fight scene on one of my social media, I got some unexpected feedback of a guy pointing out some technical aspects that werent credible LOL. To be honest, at that specific scene ,I just let my imagination running wild but right now my Gods and Dragons15 is entering in phase where things are getting more "serious". I will probably let my imagination running wild here too, since this is more a fantasy like comic than a real martial artist one but I'm curious on how you deal with this.

BTW, my Gods and Dragons15 have reached 51 pages. Congrats for me. Go check!! Ahaha

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    Mar '20
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    Mar '20
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On something like this, it can be a toss-up. I think if your character has been canonically committed to a particular martial art, like Jujitsu or Aikido, you should definitely have some knowledge of the techniques. But if you're character is just a "fighter," and the comic isn't intended to be, we'll say "hard science," then just have some fun with it.

You're always going to get readers, both courteous and not-so courteous, who want to nitpick. I have a friend that's bad about that with TV shows and movies, to the point that he can't really enjoy anything that isn't completely scientifically plausible or completely off-the-wall nonsense. If you burden yourself with every reader's nuanced critique, you'll go nutty--and never have a consistent comic!

I usually tend to make my fight scenes and the choreography in it elaborate; nothing's worse than a reader who is unable to follow the action in the fight.

I also tend to try and keep a good pacing to the fight, even though i struggle with them a bit.
By the way, who was the guy that gave you feedback?

I spent about eight years learning wado ryu karate, so you'll see some of those forms in my work. My characters generally hold their fists properly (with the thumb tucked outside), keep their guards up when kicking etc. I've also learned a bit of iaido and spent some time learning about other swordfighting forms.
Ultimately though, I prioritise showing personality in how characters fight over perfectly showcasing a specific style. The fights in Errant are often quite frantic and scrappy. If you've ever been in a sparring match, or watched them in the olympics etc. you'll know that the techniques tend to be much looser. Nobody's breaking out a perfect kata when there's a demon rushing at them!

My goal is always to make the reader think "This character is awesome", not "that was a flawless mawashigeri". Kind of like how swordfights in movies are these dance-like spectacles of parries and drama and jumping over things, while a real life swordfight is more like clash-bash-stab and it's all over. While some things need to be accurate because detail makes things feel more real and cool, sometimes you gotta go with rule of cool. I was always the only person in my dojo who would use jump-kicks, and even then I found they only worked as a feint, but in an action comic? You bet I want to see people doing flying spin kicks and stuff! It's just way more fun and dramatic that way.

Just fell the same way. That is what comics are for, isn't? :grin:

Me have some small martial arts background, enough to understand fight choreography and make sense of unusual scenarios. It helpful to have basic knowledge of physics, anatomy, and sociology (with regard to fight culture).

Honestly, when me feeling lazy me download movie clips from YouTube and write down what happen beat-for-beat. Mix-match different fight scenes, adapt for different characters, environments, and weapons, and hey presto, brand-new action sequence.

The last fight scene me wrote incorporated bit of first Bourne movie, chase scene from Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame, running fight from Captain America: Civil War, bit from second Bourne movie, and trench scene from Sucker Punch. Me could have gone a little further to make choreography unrecognizable, but me like the collage effect of visible glue in the cracks.

Most readers not gonna care about technical aspects of fighting. Few even know the different boxing punches, let alone the different kinds of kicks and sword cuts. But it important to be clear when describing the flow and the mood of the fight. Fast moves should feel fast and heavy blows should feel heavy.

I usually start off with a good-flowing rough and then get increasingly technical as i progress through each intermediate draft. The endgoal of my fight scenes is to have a clearly readable intent behind every single move and several branches of overarching technical 'story': for example, combatant 1 with a longsword engages combatant 2 who is a superpowered hand-to-hand fighter; #2 keeps dashing in with his superior speed and slamming the roundhouse into his opponent's arms to pin the sword and interrupt the strikes, allowing to then close distance for a punching combination - so #1 adapts by feinting high and then stepping back with a transition to the low guard, baiting and evading the roundhouse to go in for a free counter as #2 recovers from the whiffed strike.

When broken down and presented with proper paneling and angles, it's easy to convey irrespective of the martial arts knowledge of the reader, while keeping the fight engaging and adding an extra layer of emotional tension into the fight; there's not going to be the same degree of intensity if the only intent behind the strikes thrown is 'rawwwwwr im gonna hit ya' with no intelligent action or response from either character.

Big downside though, it's a humongous time sink. :^)

I let the fight scene evolve as I draw it. I rarely plot the whole thing out, so I kind of employ a "Oooh that'd be cool! What about this?" approach as I draw it.
But I do try to find interesting ways to use my characters abilities and personalities. I also try to include the environment as a part of the fight too. Another thing is I like to have bombastic hits, so I really focus on point of impact shots.

The biggest thing I do use to influence my fights is music. In particular, the metal subgenre, Deathcore, the heavy assaulting breakdowns help me imagine brutal hits.
For example...this breakdown was a big go-to in the Rip vs Jotunna fight

Edit: here's a couple pages from that fight.


Short answer: RESEARCH IS FOR CHUMPS; FOLLOW YOUR HEART

Long answer: So obviously, I'm not big on the technical stuff. I try to think about each fighter's mindset and tendencies (which limbs they favor, whether or not they're trying to kill, how scared they are) but that's about as far as I go.

I don't think accuracy is a big deal, mostly because...well, fight choreography for entertainment and actual fights are completely different things.

I remember once when I was young, I heard that "swashbuckling" isn't actually a thing in real life...? Like, the majority of true swordfights last all of 10 seconds before someone gets stabbed and dies...and I was like "Honestly, yeah...that makes sense." It takes a lot of training, attention, and quick reflexes to parry blows, and very few people have that at the best of times, let alone in a real battle where you're risking death.

Since then, I've looked at fight choreography much differently, and more carefully. It's like anything else in art; you have to craft it with a goal in mind. You want everyone involved to have a turn (which is inherently unrealistic) and you want to make sure you're building the right energy. Your typical urban-fantasy anime battle is supposed to 'feel' different from a 1920's boxing match.

Just in general, I think it's better to "flavor" a fight with elements and stances from real fighting styles if you need some realism, rather than to try to recreate a real fight move-by-move. Unless you're literally drawing a martial arts exhibition match.

coughs Write and read smut for a couple of hours and see if you learned anything.

True story. But the G-rated answer is focus on the thing you want the reader/viewer to follow.





It happens really fast but look at that. Lilo sees the shell, picks up the shell, Stitch knocks it out, and then hisses at her, and then she glares at him. Super simple communication. I was actually looking for the squirt gun scene because the animators in the commentary-bonus stuff made a point of saying how they slowed that scene down specifically so it was very clear Stitch is hit twice.

My comic has martial arts injected in the story by it's not entirely a focus. I got a critique on the movements of my characters so I took the time to do some research on techniques and katas in karate. While the character all have formal training the situations they're in don't don't always lend to that. I found a great wiki that has explanations and video examples of techniques including stances, kicks, blocks etc. https://blackbeltwiki.com/2 I reccommend it if you need to find a move that works in a scene or if you want to do some research.

When I choreograph a fight scene, I usually write it out first. I'll do my thumbnails detailing how it plays out. If I don't like the thumbnails or they don't flow. I'll research for a while and try again.

Even in real life, there still large variety of scenarios and outcomes. Not all swordfights were to-the-death, for example. There were competitions and exhibition matches and even duels to first blood only. Even in deadly fights there still huge element of unpredictability. Person could die in one hit. Person could survive despite many many hits. People have been hit in heart and still live long enough to kill other guy. People have lost limbs and still won fight. Other times, simple cut on artery am sufficient to end fight, and also life. Mebbe nobody die, mebbe somebody die, mebbe both people die.

Accuracy in fight scenes am big deal if accuracy itself am big deal in story. Fight verging on slapstick am okay in comedy, mebbe not-so-okay in lovingly-researched work of historical fiction.

My suggestion is to stick your observations/research to fictional fighting like fight scenes in movies/TV, fighting video games and professional wrestling.

These are constructed with the concepts of narrative/storytelling baked into them. Real fights/fighting styles might tell a story but they're not uniquely paced for the entertainment medias.

I watch animated fight scenes (Joaquim dos Santos does these well) to see how angles, perspective, and flow works.

I'll map out what the basics of the fight to keep in mind who is moving where to give a clearer picture of where it starts, ends, and collateral damage/use of the surroundings

I use body-kuns. A LOT

I also draw (literally) from experience. If you're going to be writing a lot of fight scenes, take a martial arts class. It will really help you with flow, knowing how people move, and fighting strategy/form

And congratulations on reaching 51 pages on your comic!

I did a presentation of comic fights and I spent a lot of time emphasizing how important the story of the fight is.
The overall point of the fight.

From there it's choice D) All of the above.
1) What's the tone of the story? Light, dark, serious, goofy?
2) Eastern ( precise movements and chained action) Western (Poses and captured snapshots of drama)
3) Technical or exaggerated?

The execution style/filming style/panel style etc....

4) What you did/do to make the fight matter to the story.

And not to sound ambiguous all the time, here is the link to the webinar - and No, I don;t expect anyone to buy it,. but at least it's a reference to the stuff I'm always talking about. Although the lessons are applicable to all mediums, I obviously focus mostly on 3D comics.

https://www.daz3d.com/daz-studio-fight-scenes--the-vital-creative-guide1

I think Martial Arts and self-defense are good for anyone to know as it builds confidence and discipline, but I would shy away from going after practical experience for everything you intend to do a lot of in your comic(s). A comic lives off exaggeration and sprinkles in real-world details for believe-ability.

I lean on (my own experience) that heavily, as that's my real life lane- so I add that to the fights as we can sometimes get in the character's head- but then I don't know guns to that level or swords....or explosions....or spaceships....or astrophysics..
As some point RESEARCH and STUDY become your knowledge builders.

There's also a ton of reference material for fight choreography and behind the scenes documentaries...stuff about the best fight scenes (ever on film) and historical stuff.

The stuff with the dolls is crazy. Great idea too.
I used to use the ones that came with Manga Studio or whatever its name is now.

You don't need to commit to a year long class, you can take a self-defense workshop and that can help. Just like if you were writing a police procedural, you don't need to become a cop but you should try and talk to one.

Just to build on my previous post, i have a handful of examples of how a basic understanding of techniques/fight strategy/styles can give you a unique and subtle tool for building your characters.

Take the longsword. A versatile weapon with many different techniques to apply: thrusts, slashes, pull-cuts, binding (wrestling in weapon-weapon contact), body contact wrestling and throws, offsetting strikes to the opponent's weapon, deflecting with blocks, counter strikes with a built in defense, etcetera. Having a good understanding of how all those elements interact will grant you the intuition to understand what kind of techniques a character with their specific mindset may prefer.

Someone confident in their athleticism, with a penchant for studying the groundwork of any skill rather than it's finer nuance, yet also cautious and averse to unnecessary danger or uncertainty might prefer to lead the fight with his footwork: taking superior angles to limit both the defensive and offensive options of his opponent at once, keep his distance to maintain full field of view and have plenty of time to react and in general, stay evasive and trust his body more than his weapon.

Take another character, who in opposite, is eager to give due diligence to the finer and more specialized techniques of the longsword. Inquisitive, aiming to study and pick apart even his opponent - their style could be more focused on probing reactions, provoking them and punishing where the opponent's knowledge is lacking, doing so by switching guard positions to either threaten or welcome the opponent, throwing single attacks to see the opponent's reaction, often clashing to bind the opponent's weapon, granting him control and the ability to physically feel the changes in pressure through his own sword as the opponent wrestles back or tries to disengage, feeding a flow of information that he can expertly and subtly adapt to.

Or maybe the character you're looking at is bloodthirsty and grim: they have a weapon in their hand, they know well that it's used to maim and kill, and their mindset is that of egomaniac superiority and seething contempt, urging them to crush the opponent as fast and mercilessly as possible. Then, unlike the previous two fighters, who, by virtue of their mindset and style would be more than happy to let their opponent attack first and walk themselves into a counter, this character would always take the initiative, diving in to immediately threaten the opponent with a deathblow - and as everyone is forced to respect the possibility of getting their head lopped off, this naturally elicits a reaction that the initiator can play off. Leading the fight with attack after attack, they put the opponent in a state of panic and force them to defend with increasingly desperate and disadvantageous moves; but if the opponent gathers themselves and fights back, then the aggressor can still easily take their turn back with a feint; and unlike more patient fighters, who might feint and wait to see the reaction, the aggressor feints and then immediately attacks in order to intimidate the opponent and make sure that they will be afraid to try counter - as any strike could turn out to be a feint with no pause before the follow-up attack, leaving no opportunity for them to retract their ill-timed counter.

Of course, you shouldn't expect your reader to immediately catch on to these correlations. However, comics are incredibly versatile in their ability to show, not tell, and with a bit of pause, focus, intent in your paneling, some artistic exaggeration or good use the occam razor (narrowing it all down to only the relevant and speaking details), you can make it shine without a single written word, through action and mood alone.

@rmdooley @lyspher...and ect.,

It's not to say knowledge of real world martial arts isn't useful but it's useful in the painting part of building a wall...the framing and drywall are built with the narrative and a greater understanding of how fictional combat works differently than any real world concepts.

Even just in the simplest points of balance and stance, real world martial positioning is static and dull compared to the art of the fictional poses.

Well, i'd say that it's duller and more static, not static and dull to an absolute. Watch a bomb fight like Hagler V Hearns or a highlight reel of someone like Tyson or Ramon Dekkers and you'll still feel and see the power and dynamic motion that make martial arts an exciting sport to watch in first place.

It's all up to the artist's style and intent: refraining from unrealistic exaggeration creates it's own effect and tone for the fight - more patient and technical, carrying a stronger sense of visceral physicality since the motions are easier to grasp and relate to; while having solid composition and linework/rendering can still infuse it with intensity and action.

Of course, one shouldn't tit-for-tat try emulate a real bout of combat, as artistic transformation is still at the core of a comic - but even at an unorthodox extreme, realism still makes for a foundation just as solid as exaggerated gesture; different, not the same, but still rooted in the excitement of a fight.

Edit: my suggestion would be to use non-fiction fight footage/knowledge with the clear intent of extracting your own vision of what specific elements make it exciting; transform through condensing and crisply punctuating the key 'beats' of a fight by making sure every sequence has a discernible chain of 'action-reaction' and clearly defined intent coming from the characters.

More knowledge and attention to detail can help you achieve more with less, as any single action can in turn create multiple branches of varying resonance - a simple punch - say, a straight to the sternum - will cause an immediate reaction; but also, if you focus the attention on the specific circumstances in which it was thrown, then a longer-running branch splits off that has the reader recognize and anticipate whenever that specific punch might come into play again. From that point onward, the fight's flow is yours to play with.

Moreover, the real-world application of said simple punch to the sternum is usually to unbalance the opponent and interrupt their movement; knowing that, you could bring attention to the effect of that single punch and then branch it off into a whole sequence of follow-up strikes, all connected and stemming from the advantage gained by that momentary action.