Jun 2019
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Jun 2019
Jul 2019
therealbereth
Jun '19
Merle

I consider especially his calmness the one factor that made me wary of him.

He's employing abuser's 101 with his behavior. He seems rational. He even seems likeable to the people who don't directly suffer the consequences of his manipulations ( = the audience). All while literally isolating his abuse victims (the two sisters), another abuser tactic right from the guidebook...

So it really puts me off when THOSE are the qualities that people find likeable in him. Because they are nothing but a smokescreen, and it's frustrating to see that so many people don't seem to know that. But then again, many people haven't experienced abuse in their lives—luckily!

But I can't really forgive storytellers when they pull something like that in a multimillion dollar franchise. I feel like they should know better or at least consult with people who've been through something like Gamora and Nebula before they start glorifying their abuser. >_>

TAMAnnoyingThe Cow
Jun '19

I think my problem with thanos was that he was a well written Villain, (which is pretty rare for the MCU I think), so a lot of people flock to him being a character they “like” tho that dosnt mean they agree with him, and some may “love to hate him.”

I liked thanos but my problem with his plan was that..... we’re most villains in the MCU fail to be good foils to the heroes the hero’s felt like bad foils to thanos. When they argued over morality instead of trying to out science him in his assessment on how to save the universe it was mostly “this is evil” which is a pretty lame retort for a guy who’s trying to take what he sees as a logical way to deal with a bad situation to make it “better for everyone.”

It was a weird situation where I enjoyed the villain more then the heroes cause they didn’t seem to try very hard to convince the villain that he’s wrong on his level. But I don’t know... maybe I just enjoyed doctor strange’s ending too much where he outwits the villain rather then punches him harder x3

Merle
Jun '19
therealbereth

The most common display and tactic to manipulate victims and outsiders I have seen and experienced is that of emotions. Being incredibly "Sad" to pressure someone into feeling guilty; or turning themselves into the victim, Anger to intimidate, Extrem Happiness and Joy over behaviour that benefits abusers (this especially with a power imbalance). I am much more worried about how often abusers are displayed as "finally" showing emotions in Media, when those are VERY common responses to criticismn (of the abuser).
Maybe I am missunderstanding your point; but I am glad for any relationships that are able to calmly discuss matters; and try to handle emotions outside of arguments etc.
So yeah, his calmness made me sympathise. Of course I was looking past that and recognizing his mad power fantasies and the aparent adhorent abuse of his daugthers (and frankly anyone).
I guess we´ve all made different experiences, and somebody that is extremly cold and not willing to discuss or display emotions can be a huge burden too. Personally I am more wary of the emotional manipulators.

  • I just read the glorifying abusers part and I 100% agree - that topic shouldn´t be taken lightly!
SleepingPoppy
Jun '19
TAMAnnoying

Kind of agree kind of don't. I think I would have liked it if the movie actually went over why Thanos is wrong ('cause he is!) for the audience, but I don't think the heroes debating him in the matter would have worked or made much sense. All the "this is logical and inevitable" stuff is window dressing to what is actually a man with an obsession. He isn't really thinking logically and logic won't convince him.

I think the writers wanted us to feel like Thanos's plan was justifiable, too? I have trouble articulating exactly why, but I think they wanted him to be as convincing to the audience as possible. He's veyr cult-leader-esque to me, and I think we're meant to be at least somewhat swayed...

But yeah, even if I don't think arguing directly with Thanos would have worked, I think I at least would have prefered we got the actual counter arguments(s) in, not just the general "thats evil, we're good, killing bad" stuff. (And I say that as a huge fan of cheesiness and friendship saving the day!)

Pan
Jun '19

There are a lot of replies here and I mostly just wanted to jump in and add my two cents:

I dunno about Thanos, but there are plenty of characters that are straight up bad people that I can't help but like sometimes. Prime examples of which have to be Serena and Aunt Lydia from The Handmaid's Tale. The reason I like them is despite all the unquestionably awful and sometimes downright evil things they do, they are on occasion portrayed with moments of humanity. In those moments they're real people, people who aren't wicked incarnate. It makes them very three-dimensional, and to an extent, likable.

Now uh, you didn't hear this from me, but I know some people think Thanos is hot. People tend to like hot villains, for whatever reason lol. I'm not into purple bald dudes, but I'm sure there are other reasons people like him lol

TAMAnnoyingThe Cow
Jun '19
SleepingPoppy

Yes agree 100% I mean I like debates but the heroes and thanos sitting around at a table discussing it would have been super tone deft XD but Yeha I would have liked something where one of the less “morally good” good guys where like “actually that would cause a b and c to happen and that’s bad.” While the others are like “or maybe it’s bad cause it’s evil?” And they just shrug or something XD I don’t know. I guess I find thanos’ reasons to be super interesting! But I also feel like they where portrayed to much as “truly the only way”

trace
Jun '19

@therealbereth I didn't think the MCU made Thanos out to be very likable - they only made him believable. It's why he's the villain, and (SPOILERS FOR ENDGAME => why they didn't redeem him or even try right up 'til his demise).
Also, most people I know don't like him the way he is. They just like the way he's written. He's not likable in a sense that most people would actually agree with him and his ways - he's likable because he's written in the movie as someone who could actually be real. It makes him human. You can have someone who thinks and acts like Thanos in the real world. And I think that's just why he's a very memorable villain, to the point that some people equate to him being memorable to him being likable. Sure, he's despicable, but he's pretty realistic in his drive and ambition. He's a larger-than-life character that's just downright menacing and vicious.
Also, if you actually do despise his character, then that means that the writers effectively did their job in making him a villain. As for me, I wouldn't say I like his personality and his goals, but it's his drive and will to pursue whatever he wants that fascinates me.

SleepingPoppy
Jun '19
TAMAnnoying

Agreed. I think any kind of push back that went a little deeper than killing is bad would have been welcome. Though I might have enjoyed someone shouting counter points at Thanos as a distraction while everyone else tackles him.

simplykit
Jun '19

likable is a strong word if im gonna talk about thanos ... bearable maybe :blush:

well hes been built up as the biggest baddie the avengers ever encountered so thats a point

i guess he talks less compared to other villains :ok_hand:

and accomplished more terrible things

out of topic
whats up with the hulk being so weak!!!??? thats like the biggest disappointment for me
did they purposely nerf him so other characters could be more cooler?

therealbereth
Jun '19
TAMAnnoying

Oh my god, that movie was so much fun; it's one of my favorites within the MCU, including Guardians 2. Could watch that scene over and over again. So I totally get your critique regarding IW, the heroes were just... kinda lame. All with "we are not going to exchange lives", but then the whole Wakandan army can fight and die so they can try and rescue Vision. Where was the logic in any of their actions?

From that standpoint, Thanos is definitely more intriguing. But as I said, people who actually LIKE like him outside of that? Makes me shiver;;

Ah, but SleepingPoppy puts it into words just like I felt it while watching:

The way he was framed was definitely meant to sway the audience to some degree. And that is something I so can not get behind. Thanos is, as a character, a super interesting villain. Or he could've been, had the Russos not tried to make him "relatable". I much prefer showing how broken and out of touch a villain truly is, like they did with Kylo Ren, for example. I can sympathise with his struggle, with his emotions, without the movie trying to sell me the idea that he has a point.

Oh yes, those are tactics most often applied to the victim themselves, no doubt about that! But outside of that, abusers use the tactic of seeming more reasonable, more "trustworthy" than their victims so friends and acquaintances would rather believe their lies than the emotional outbursts of the victim when it's just gotten too much to hold it in anymore. Abusers gaslight their victims with this approach: "see how sad you make me now, YOU are the aggressor", while calmly and "rationally" explaining to friends how the victim has wronged them.

I've been through my share of abuse by a toxic group dynamic, and I believed for MONTHS that I was the actual problem, the "witch", the aggressor, although my aggression only ever stemmed from outbursts when their "calmness" was taken as a sign of honesty while I was ostracized and isolated for merely asking that I don't do our shared work all alone after my best friend had JUST died... Yeah, so: calmness, keeping up appearances, trying to seem "reasonable" and "I just want to do the right thing"? All HUGE red flags to me. I don't trust people who pride themselves in how above everything they are. It's almost always a lie.

So of course, I saw that 100% in Thanos. And it sickens me to this day, especially his last scene in IW. Yes, let's show the mass murderer and abuser chilling on his porch after a long day of hard work! I was like... wtf? :neutral_face:

And that humanity is something I just don't want to see anymore in abusive assholes like Thanos.

We've had enough of those "misunderstood" men in media. Further giving us a narrative that makes them human in a sense that we start to relate to them is deeply hurtful and harmful. They ARE human, of course. But their behavior needs to be called out with all determination by the narrative (and the characters within it, of course). Failing to do so doesn't make for good storytelling in my eyes, but is just a kinda cheap tool to make an audience understand what this villain does.

There are other ways to do that.

Would've been the perfect role for little Peter if you ask me. xD

SleepingPoppy
Jun '19

Bonus points if at one point they imply he is preparing for a real life debate in school and is nervous about it. XD

trace
Jun '19
therealbereth

What I meant to say when I said it makes him real and human is that he's real and human in the sense that his despicable and, as you say, abusive behavior is something you can find in some people. Most people relate to Thanos not because they agree with him, but because he could be real. They don't sympathize with him - just empathize. Like I said, it's why he's the villain, and if you're looking for him to be called out, there's a reason why a lot of people think it's pretty dumb of him to not just snap infinite resources rather than be a sociopath and kill off half of all life.

therealbereth
Jun '19
1

The fact of the matter still is: the movie never really calls him out. It's all about "killing is bad". Yeah no shit, Sherlock. xD But the heroes never challenge his twisted ideals, never is there any word about "but why not just up the resources?" or whatever thought one might have about it all.

If people come out of the movie with these thoughts by themselves, great. But the narrative doesn't support it. The narrative aims to make him sympathetic. It's just super bad storytelling when the villain isn't called out once, but instead shown in a light of "peace" at the very end of the story. That is what Infinity War did.

And what they did in Endgame (not spoiling anything here) is almost worse. The butchered half the cast. Thanos is only the most striking nonsense narrative in IW. And people who have no experience with abuse and whatnot? They don't get it. They simply don't get it. Believe me, I've seen people genuinely saying stuff like Thanos has a point, and I'm— :no_mouth:

Can't defend this.

trace
Jun '19
1

I haven't encountered anybody genuinely and passionately agreeing with Thanos, but if I did meet one, online or irl, I'd pretty much recommend they talk to their therapist asap.

I see your point with the narrative. I've rewatched both movies a countless times (both for reference and just for fun), and I've found that the reason why almost everybody who watched them stays focused on Thanos is because nobody really tries to argue with his points. But I've also found that the reason nobody really does in those movies is because the heroes opposing him have already established what they stand for and what their answers are with the past movies. Cap doesn't believe in trading lives, and he's a stubborn old man. Stark is a futurist - almost with the same mindset as Thanos - but he's learned that trying to take control of the things you can't leads only to destruction for everybody. Those are their counterpoints to Thanos, and we've come to love them because we've grown up seeing them stand for these ideals, even if they fail sometimes. But that's why they're the Avengers. They avenge.

You have to remember that both movies almost focus on Thanos' villainy because it's what they wanted - because they've been hyping him up for the past ten to eleven years. That's also partly why they don't need someone to counter Thanos' points. Because just the existence of the Avengers is in defiance against those points.

I do agree that they actually sometimes try to make Thanos sympathetic. But I (and this is my own experience - totally not speaking for everybody here) saw those moments as him being shown as having human emotions. But not all human emotions are good for everybody. He was shown as having achieved peace at the end of IW, but that was peace because he did what he said he was gonna do. That's it. And I'm theorizing that they did it for the shock of it. The main villain actually won by the end of the movie, and it caused such a storm that, circling back, you get people admiring Thanos. But I don't see it as the movie's fault. It shows more for the people who watched it.

TL;DR: The heroes don't need to say Thanos has sh*t goals because what they've already done in the past speak for themselves, Thanos is believable and human, but a sociopathic sh*t one, both movies needed to focus on him to establish his sh*ttiness, and if you encounter anybody actually siding with Thanos, RUN.

baasinsimple
Jun '19

Well, it's the Charisma and the way the character is made. What true narrative purpose does Bellatrix have? Nothing, she's an unlikable mid-tier protagonist. Thanos poses a question, and despite his sociopathic tendencies has a tie to real world ideologies even if it is greatly exaggerated, unlike let's say Bellatrix who is a one-dimensional psycho.

OttoGruenwald
Jun '19

Can't really comment on Movie Thanos as I stopped with the MCU around Ant-Man I think. Comic Thanos was sort of a bleh character until Infinity Gauntlet. He bounced around as the death-loving arch foe of first Captain Marvel then Adam Warlock, then Infinity Gauntlet comes around and he's got a cool storyline where he's kind of a like a cosmic Anansi going from Elder of the Universe to Elder of the Universe outwitting them and taking their gems, then it becomes this big cosmic story where he tries to woo Death but can't because by being more powerful than Death he places himself beyond his power.

Comic Thanos was cool because he felt very mythological--a man that fell in love with a goddess and tried to be a god to win her.

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