I agree. It's unfortunate that there's a writer vs artist debate at all, though I understand why it happens. It should be a team effort!
That said, for solo creators, I can see how it being quite overwhelming to work on improving your writing and art, as well as everything else involved in making a comic. If only there were more hours in the day...
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said by folks in here already, but as a solo creator, I've noticed that most of the comments early on in my comic talk about the art, whereas most of the comments later on in the comic talk about the story. Good art will get butts in seats, but it's the writer's job to keep them there. At first the number of people talking about the art may seem lopsided, but I think it balances out over time.
AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH WRITING IS SO DIFFICULT!!!!!
YOU GUYS WANNA KNOW HOW I GOT TO WHERE I AM!!?!
PEOPLE INSULTING YOUR WORK, FRIENDS CONSTANTLY POINTING OUT WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T WORK, FINDING THE RIGHT PEOPLE TO CRITICIZE YOUR WORK, REALIZING THAT "Hey... I'm not really funny at all!", WORKING ON YOUR HUMOR, LEARNING HOW PEOPLE FUNCTION AND TALK (WHICH WAS SUUUUUUUPER EASY FOR A HOMEBODY LIKE ME! CAN YOU TELL HOW EASY IT WAS?!?)
And oh my God, don't get me started on how EVERY. SINGLE. THING. HAS TO BE THERE FOR A REASON. How to make everything cohesive. How themes must not be just for aesthetic, but it has to SAY something. OH MY GOD! HOW YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO GIVE LESSONS TO PEOPLE SO YOUR COMIC CAN STAND OUT. Now you're telling me, I have to have experience with LIFE?!? Next thing you know you want me to do 10 backflips!
And then when you think you right, you discover, your biased! You have views that can make a person on the other side angry. And now you're like "HOW DO I MAKE MYSELF NOT BIASED?!?". Don't forget hubris!
And then you actually have to study how comics move and all that. You read through like SEVEN HUNDRED OLD COMIC BOOKS. And then you analyze movies to try and figure out how things fit together and what the writer's trying to say. And then you have...
To find....
AN ARTIST.
You spend six-years online, looking for someone to draw your webcomic, until finally you find out that maybe people want STICK FIGURES.
And then I have to streamline, and then I have to worry about plotholes... flushing scripts down the toilet.
Artists... hug your writers. Tell them how much you appreciate them.
@darthmongoose For me, I will say forcing yourself to write papers until it's a habit is important. Sure people will need guidance, but "just writing" is really important. Maybe just writing for a little while before being like "Okay... now I'm want to get serious". I think I did that for 10 scripts and then I just began writing seriously and began looking around for proper help.
For me, I will say YouTubers and music helped out more than books (Half in the Bag, B-Mask, and Matthewmatosis are great jumping off points. I don't recommend Lindsey Ellis, the Sardonicast, Everything Wrong With, Hbomberguy, Schfillias, Chris Stuckmann, etc., etc.). I remember my friend who was an english major using how-to books and she was shocked that I was using concepts she hasn't learned yet. (For me I just stick with South Park's "But, then, But, then" outline). ALTHOUGH I WON'T LIE! It was difficult for me to find the right people to learn from and to top it off... I have a hard time learning stuff in English.
Like I remember I was taking English and I was like "OH THAT'S WHAT THIS THING IS CALLED!". Also you'll look stupid when talking to other writers with just english stuff in general. I remember feeling really dumb when a person was giving writing advice and when I tried jumping in to give writing advice it just sounded like I was way out of my depth because HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT AN ADJECTIVE MEANS?!? (The other person came across as more articulate while I just sounded like some dude with a pencil jammed in my nose).
Which is why I like talking to more casual writers instead of hardcore writers. I just felt so out of place.
Yeah, most people I would argue don't value writing as much as art.
If you put a piece of artwork next to an excerpt of a book, Generally, people will gravitate more to the artwork. That's because people have become accustomed to what's visually pleasing rather than what is intellectually pleasing. Also, consider this: An author demands so much time from a reader, whilst the viewer of a drawing or painting can offer as much time as they feel the piece is worth. The same with popular music. Songs now require very little time from the listener.
Even when a reader finds a book they like and invest considerable emotional energy into experiencing the work, they will still be very critical of the author because they are going to have very personal opinions on just about everything.
However, for me, there is no greater feeling than seeing a subscriber of mine commit themselves to following a story that may (not all the time) be lacking in the art department, but have strong writing.
I'd even go so far as to argue writing a story can be harder to do than drawing one. In visual media you can literally show the viewer everything you want, so there are no misinterpretations. It takes less steps to show or explain things because the viewer can literally see it. That's not to say drawing doesn't take skill, you have to put in effort to design things in a visually appealing way, but for example
Memes. They are basically mini comics. They get the benefits of using text and visuals like comics.
Take almost any meme in existence and try to convey it without its visual elements and it becomes near impossible to capture the essence of the original. Now take that same meme and cut out the text elements. Even without words, a lot of memes are still funny enough to laugh or chuckle at. Memes without visual elements come off as out of context observations at best.
On top of that, in writing, you have to do writen gymnastics to:
And you have to do those things basically from line to line on top of watching your grammar, punctuation, tens, and a plethora of other things.
In a comic you have backgrounds, so people can see where they are.
You have thought and speech bubbles so people can see who's speaking.
People can see clothes and faces.
They can see expressions and know how characters are feeling.
In writing, there are less tools available, so it's easier to build something wrong even or especially if it's built faster. Drawing may take more time but you have so many elements you can use to avoid the gymnastics of writing.
Writing is like building with a single material while drawing is having nearly every material. And I know that then brings up the argument that too much choice can be a problem in itself, but if you had an option to build a house out of nothing but bricks, vs building a house out bricks, insulation, carpet, glass, marble, and wood, which would you chose? Because sure, the brick house might be faster to build, but it'll probably take a lot more effort to make it comfortable and safe to live in.
I'm writing all of this while riding a train, so my thoughts are a little scattered, but I'm sure someone must get what I mean.
something I heard once that I like to remember when it comes to writing is a tip I got from a teacher that was "writing is like kissing, where everyone thinks they're amazing and Gods gift to man until they're told otherwise." 
Like it's one of those skills that you will continue to improve at your whole life. Especially since with the internet every place you write demands you write a little different with pacing, with amount of words you can use, etc. There's just always something to learn.
That and I think writing comics in particular is really difficult because it's connected to the art so much. Connecting the art and the writing was really hard for me for a long while, and it's been a lot of learning as you go, but i'm only where I'm at because of all the work put into it. Do I put more time and energy into the art? Absolutely, but only because the writing is so much quicker to do.
Like if I were only writing, I could have written like so many comics during this time I've spent just drawing one (which is one of the reasons why artists who work on comics get paid more than the writer usually. The writer can just make more work to sell, and the artist can't. They only work on one comic at a time really, ti's a lot of work. So it's not really a matter of being viewed as more important: its a matter of being able to get paid.). That and I think writing is more accessible to learn, you just need...to write. It's a lot harder to come by art materials and art instruction. But...writing ain't easy.
which is one of the reasons why artists who work on comics get paid more than the writer usually.
It's so interesting to think about who gets more kudos/money/etc. in the artist-writer relationship. I remember listening to some professional illustrators talk about how in their field, writers get big billing, but artists (despite being a big component of picture books) are a second thought.
Honestly, I don't think either is the primary reason art is more valued. It's more of a matter at looking at something and asking yourself 'could I have made this'?
When most people looks at a competent illustration, it's immediate to them that 'no, I couldn't have drawn this, creating this work is beyond my abilities, therefore it's valuable. Whereas a lot of people, after reading a good story, think 'I could probably write something like this if I tried' cough not 13-year-old me saying to my stepmom I could probably write something like Pillars of the Earth cough :'D
As someone who can draw, I know how labor-intensive art is, but I think I actually value art less than the average person. Like, I can't see myself paying for a commission because it's like, I could just ... do it myself :'D These days I see a drawing and being able to mentally deconstruct it and figure out a process by which I can recreate it - I've lost that sense of awe I felt looking at drawings like that back when I didn't know how to draw; that sense of 'how is this even made, whoever made this must be a literal miracle worker' o_o
I also have a sneaking suspicion most people aren't actually unaware of how labor-intensive art is - them lowballing artists on commissions is just a matter of 'people are cheap, and want to pay the minimal amount they could possibly get away with'. If someone sees their favourite brand of sneakers on sale at 80% off, they're not going to insist on paying full price for it anyway just because it's 'worth that much'.
To be entirely honest, I find it a bit grating how the art community act like people underpaying them is a matter of them thinking 'artists don't deserve living wages'. Like ... no, it's not a matter of what you do or don't 'deserve', it's just ... demand and supply, basically. If those same people could get away with underpaying people from literally any other industry, they're sure as heck gonna do that as well. Not saying it's right, just ... it's not some sort of personal insult
Yeah, 'just write' is good for developing a habit and 'loosening your tongue', so to speak, and getting over that 'word constipation' where you have things you want to say but can't bring yourself to say them because the words that come to you aren't 'perfect'. But it's probably not that helpful for improving the actual quality of one's writing 
I agree with the overall message of your comment, but I gotta say ... I never really understood the appeal of wordless memes and I don't remember any of them making me laugh Also, copypastas are hilarious 
depends on the field and the writer. If the writer is a celebrity then yeah they'd make more money, but that would be true of anything if you're working with a celebrity/influencer. But in the end if you're a illustator working on a book expect to spend years of your life on one single book.
This reminds me of something I heard my brother say recently. He's not an artist, nor does he write stories or anything like that. We were at the Museum of Glass in Seattle (there's some really stunning stuff in there, if you've never gone), and he's standing next to me considering a really intricate piece. Speaking from the perspective of someone who has never tried glass blowing of any sort, he says to me that work like that can probably only truly be appreciated by someone who has tried to create it. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. I think the Dunning-Kruger effect is very relevant here, and I see it a lot when people consider either art or writing. Most people have no idea how difficult or how much work it takes to make something of any kind of quality because they have zero frame of reference beyond "I drew a smiley face once." or "I took a creative writing class." Education is the key, but boy folks sure are ready to have an opinion about these things.
This could really be applied to virtually anything else in life too, not just art or writing. COUGHpoliticsCOUGH
To take you very literally here, I actually see this more often in the sense that I hear novices go 'wow I could never do X', 'you must be very talented to be able to do X' - they overestimate how accessible a skill is. I guess it depends on the learning curve of that particular skill though. In general, I think it's okay for people to have opinions about relatively harmless stuff like art or glassblowing; it's more of a problem if they feel like it's so hopelessly inaccessible that they don't even try or if they're overly confident about and thus unwilling to critically evaluate their opinion on stuff that affects the lives of real people :'D
I mean... it depends? If you're talking about art in general then yeah, I agree. It's easier for someone to consume visuals than text, also art can be pretty, and visuals are used everywhere so people are going to be more drawn to that. It's a sad societal thing that probably won't change unless everyone goes colorblind... or blind, and have to start using braille to get all their "visual" information... or if we ban art and film outright.
If we're talking about comics, it depends on the circle you're in. Yes, people on the forum are going to value comic over written lit because Tapas was exclusively a webcomic site originally, and still advertises itself as one despite hosting novels now. A large number of creators on here are part of the webcomic community because of that, people in this community are going to be bias because they work in a visual medium. It sucks, but you know... what are you going to do? People suck.
Now if you were to bring comics into the outside world, things may be a little different. At least from what I've seen they're treated as a lesser artform, can't tell you how many people into art or literature get interested when I say I draw or printed a book, but instantly scoff the moment I mention what I'm working on is a comic. The few times I've presented my book to a local bookshop, with them showing genuine interest, until they see it's a comic. (Granted, they would have turned me down for the content anyway.) Can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say comics are worthless, on and offline. If it's webcomics it's even lower on the totem poll because they're free comics that "weren't good enough" to be picked up by publishers... which... some of them can use improvement on their stories and characters, including mine, I'm sure there are some glaring issues with it. But like, even Webtoons sees their webcomics as a lesser artform than novels:
It really depends on where you go, what communities you hang around. Overall I do agree that writers are treated as lesser in most circles, at least the visual art circles. Also even though I just complained about my own narcissistic bs I do really respect writers because, even though it takes less time to write down a paragraph than it does to draw out that paragraph, writing is hard. I can't do it to save my life because I think in visuals, which is why I do comics. I'm not sure if I'd count the masses because society as a whole treats everything like a product that should be pumped out as quickly and cheaply as possible, and absolutely devalues everything that takes time and effort.
This... honestly resonates with me more than what I actually said. It's hard for me to justify buying a commission unless I adore the person's style or we're friends and they need the money. I feel bad, but even then with the former, I'm sometimes like "You're really charging that much? I'll just do it myself."
Are you kidding me? The reason there IS a "writer versus artist" discourse is because all these sites and review platforms DON'T value the work of the artist- like you can just plug any old fuckin body in there and the story still works...this type of disregard for the value of the artist permeates and carries on to newer/younger writers who feel and carry on like, "I'm THE SHIT, and I can get any artist I want and my story will work! Artists are a dime a dozen"...there was a situation a couple weeks ago on Twitter where a writer(unfortunately, I know him coz I've did a few cons with him) was like "the artist shouldn't get [co] credit if it's work-for-hire," and comics twitter went off the handle; he's deleted the tweet, but that's gonna leave a mark on him(apparently he's doing a comic that some Hollywood type folks are looking at, plus he had some really good sales; while I applaud his success, I kinda feel like he's getting the "big head" syndrome).
Comics, are a visual medium- and the right artist with the right vision can elevate the writer's story to unparalleled heights. Definitely not saying writers aren't equal to artists- both are integral to the success of a comic; but for some insane reason, critics and media want to ballyhoo and praise the work that the writer has done, without acknowledging the equal contributions of the artist- and now they have the whole industry thinking that "I can snag any old artist off the street and make my comic work"...if the artist is interested and invested in the characters & story genuinely, you will see it in their work; by that same token, if they aren't interested in anything about the story and characters, you will see it in their work.
This mess needs to end, coz the industry is going to end up eating itself.
I think that's more of a 'respectability'/elitism thing than a visuals thing; it's that notion that comics are for kids or weirdos and '''real''' art is found in literature. In contrast, film is a visual medium but is still pretty respected (afaik anyway)
I guess people do treat more 'accessible' (e.g. visual) media as less 'sophisticated' because it 'doesn't let you use your imagination' and such, but I think that's a backlash against the already existing perception that visual media is easier to engage with; basically, it's valued less because it's valued more, if that makes sense :'D
Good point, artists are kind of seen as grunt workers who just mindlessly execute a vision that's already planned out by the '''real''' brains behind the operation; the writer. In that sense, I guess artists are valued less than writers ...
In the end, I guess 'value' is just a complicated notion that involved many dimensions
Huh, this could be because I'm kinda out of it, but I don't know what you mean by visuals vs. elitism? It definitely is an elitism thing, comic visuals don't have much to do with it, just the medium.
I don't think it's the lack of imagination, I think the low perception of comics comes from it's origins. Comics were originally made for kids, and it's always been marketed and treated as such, so there's this misconception that the medium can't possibly be used to tell mature stories. If they are for an older audience they're immature, violent and/or filled with porn. At least that's the perception I take from most people. It's just like how traditional animation is treated. Although unlike comics animation was originally for adults, then molded into children's content since kids were drawn to it, eventually sealing it's fate as being considered less sophisticated than 3D animation and live-action.
Lol that kinda sounds like it circles into what Shanny said about artists being treated like work horses. Our world is full of visuals, you can't advertise anything properly without a good logo and/or good ad visuals, the majority of people are more likely to buy stuff that has a visual design that fits their interest. There's a super high demand for artists in various fields, yet they're a dime a dozen.
To be honest, writing and art should be equal in value but I feel like it is a bit comparing apples to oranges here about which is more labor intensive. It's more of a "brain power" vs "technical power" kind of thing. Even though both are creative skillsets, writing demands more problem solving for ambiguous problems, while drawing demands you to solve straightforward problems but with a high skill barrier.
I would compare to my experience when I switched my major from design to computer science. I think both majors were pretty hard but in different ways. In design, it was extremely labor intensive, but the learning material itself was not hard to understand. On the other hand, computer science was not as intense in terms of labor and workload (my sleep greatly improved during that time), but I did struggle more with understanding the learning material at times. I would probably equate my experiences with design to art and computer science to writing if we're talking about my experiences working on my comic.
Writing can be hard because the problems you might have to solve in it are hard. For a common problem I've found myself when writing: how do I transition from this plot event to the next? It sounds straightforward but there are so many factors I need to take account for. Like will the transition make sense? Is it contrived? Would this type of transition be entertaining to readers or will it slow the pacing too much that they'll drop off? I don't think I've ran into any questions like this when drawing, but the main thing is I'll probably be spending more hours drawing than I am at writing, and time is money.
My issue with this statement is that art being a technical skill speeds up with practice. It can take an hour a page, and hour a panel, or a week a panel depending on your skill level, experience, and dedication to perfection. Some artists can produce 24 pages of fully colored comic artwork in a month; much of the time it takes longer. There are others that can do manga pages in under 2 hours.
Writing simply does not have the same "awe to time" ratio. You can make an amazing, world class recognized piece of digital art in a day. You can make a large artistic effort like a painting in week or a month, and sell it for millions if you are a well known artist.
Writing, while having some technical aspects takes a predictable amount of time. If you, like me, compose about 600 words an hour; to compose a novel sized story of 60k word would take 100 hours. 3 solid work weeks 10 hours a day. That is a short book, and that is just to get the words down. After which may require a rewrite, extensive editing, and auditing. That's if you don't get rejected for the content you write.
Art is interpretive, so people viewing it can derive what it means to them. Writing is callous an cold in comparison. Words mean specific things which can be offensive to a wide variety of people. You have to skirt around all of it. As a writer I feel like I am constantly walking on eggshells with my potential audience. My most popular story is set in another world with concultures to avoid political issues.
"art takes more time" is relative. It depends how much you are writing, a book or a comic. Comics might be faster and this conversation might be focused on that. However, for me art can be done relatively quickly and quality art is dime a dozen.
For valuing that work I can get a full color illustration for about $50-100 dollars from most artists charging for the service. On the other hand, writing an article for a website of about 1000 words I can charge $50-100 dollars for. Both the artist and writer can take about 2 hours to do that same work.
I honestly don't think there should be a debate
Any skill is HARD to obtain, is time consuming, requires years of development, constant learning, repetitiveness, patterns, grabbing any kind of resource and munch it like shredded cheese at 3 am.
Writing is hard, that's why I don't write and just focus on drawing because it is something that I already developed and had the resources for one at the time when I was originally interested in learning for both.
But on top of that, both will still have to develop skills like charisma, marketing, speeches, planification, leadership, fellowship, social interactions and more because one doesn't live solely of one single skill and makes it work for the rest.
But still, something that always bothers me is that there are always going to be those few (Or mayority) depends the case, of individuals that thanks to their lovely entitled behaviors the rest is put under the same bag and ends up generalized.
Like, I know a lot of writers who are amazing, with interesting stories, working hard, collaborating but at the same time there are times I see a few individuals, especially on my DMs that... kind of makes the rest to not look good on the spotlight and while one doesn't try to generalize there are certain paths that... just ugh.
Same for artists, you're going to find workaholics who barely take care of themselves, those filled with joy and hopes and then you're going to have those that literally are on another planet and saying nonsense or that just cry and whine so loudly because they can't get a commission despite of 10000 reasons why.
Like, yeah we all make fun or cringe at wattpad kids but then when we get disappointed with media we pridefuly claim that these kids could come up with a better ending for a series or better character development. Which is fun, not gonna lie but to a certain extent we're also denigrating both the professional skill and the amateur skill, despite well, good ideas doesn't mean there is gonna be good execution either.
And most of the time people don't see that a lot of things are scripted, like speeches, even trashy tv-reality is scripted, music, poems, commercials, even the topics of the news are scripted beforehand someone comments on it independently if we're talking about informatives, narrative text, a script, fanfiction, or whatever. Writing is writing, now, deciding to enhance that skill, that will differ from one person to another.
Either way, both careers, jobs, tasks, skills, hobbies, whatever you wanna call the art branches: drawing and writing. There is always going to be someone who doesn't value that skill, someone to screw up and make the rest look like clowns, as well for people who shows exactly that yeah this is hard work, woah the things that you can achieve, look how far you can get! And such.
I believe that the issue not only lies because of well, terms of technique, actual effort or whatever. But because it's more common heard to have illustrators being approached by some person who info dumps the lore of their story with the hopes of making a comic and become extremely rich and famous on their DMs instead of the same situation but inversed. (The fact that is not as frequent doesn't mean it doesn't happen and in both cases, I would slap whoever asks for free stuff like this)
I personally don't know which labour is more time consuming, if art or writing, I just know that it can take me an entire day to clean my house compared to someone else who takes a morning to do it. It all depends on the person and their circumstances.
