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Sep 2020

I don't know if this will be visible (the topic isn't just closed, but also unlisted), but this is what I'm referring to:

Not gonna lie; I'm actually mad this time.

I could understand when my suicide-related topic was closed. Sensitive subject matter; possibly triggering/life-threatening, even if the intent was innocuous. I get that.

But THIS??
There's nothing inappropriate about discussing racial sensitivity. In fact, I think it's the kind of discussion that more people should be having, like, in general.
I don't understand why anyone needs to be "protected" from understanding why people do or do not find certain actions offensive, especially considering the fact that the userbase of this forum is much older and more mature than average. We're adults here, not a bunch of 12-year-olds calling each other "racist" as if the word doesn't have a definition.

In any case, regardless of whether I should or should not have started the topic, I don't consider "we automatically close topics of this nature" to be a valid justification, and if it's not too much trouble I would like a real one. I would also like to know why this is happening now and did not happen when I first got here and made a habit of starting much more incendiary topics on a regular basis. If the unspoken code of conduct on this forum has changed, I would have loved to have been made aware of that.

Like, seriously, is this a trend...? Is this why I've found the forum less and less interesting lately; nothing with any nuance or gravity is allowed to be discussed?? Because if all I'll have left to do here is join in on the latest trope-hating topic or talk about subscriber counts, I might as well just leave (or at least drastically reduce my presence here) and save myself the frustration.

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    Sep '20
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    Sep '20
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This forum is becoming a joke. No worries about legal issues can justify this.
For a while, I read the argumentation that at least, this forum exists, which is better than the competition. Maybe. But we are very close to (or already reached) the point where it is becoming as useless as not being there at all.
At this point, it feels like everything is done to discourage people from using the forum (which may be a strategy to avoid the hassle of having a large forum, without an unavoidable backlash if closing it).

Hi Doki!

While topics surrounding race are allowed, it is important to be very mindful of the language and the tone used to ensure that it isn't going to cause offense to BIPOC users. Some issues that can be interesting to discuss are a reality many people have to live with, and are therefore topics to handle with care.

Thank you for understanding.

I would like to add that genuine questions are absolutely welcomed! But I do wish to reiterate it should be handled with care when it comes to certain topics. These forums are public and any person on the internet can find them and read its threads without a Tapas account.

This particular thread is a good example of how a sensitive topic can be discussed with thought and care without any heated arguments.

See, but what does that mean?? I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I didn't insult anyone, I didn't use any qualifying language (like 'stupid' or 'cruel') to describe the problem; I think the most provocative thing I said was "WHAT IS THE GAIN" in all caps. ._. Who exactly would have been offended by that??

This "explanation" is only a tiny bit less vague than the copy+pasted one...I don't know what the expectation is; am I supposed to be scared off by these sanctions and just drop the issue entirely?? Because it's not going to happen. I'm not just going to 'accept' that I was wrong without being told why.

...Call me an idiot, but I fail to see any significant difference between their writing and mine. =/ They asked a question, and cited examples to explain their confusion; I did the same thing.

I really hope these assumptions about my level of 'thought and care' aren't just based on the first sentence I wrote (that was about something completely unrelated) or the fact that I cursed twice (and the first time was censored). I'd like to see someone look at the real, full sentences of my explanation, not the one or two shiny bits that stick out the most, and tell me they're inherently disrespectful.

It's a while since I've covered any borderline offensive subject matter..

Eh, I think maybe you set yourself up a bit? This is almost like biasing people against you to assume it will be offensive.

I also think your way of speaking was maybe leaning towards the flippant. Perhaps if you'd approached the topic with less flare, and a more serious tone (ie "Hey, I have noticed this come up on twitter, and I'd love to hear your thoughts"), but I don't really know. I'm reaching a bit. XD

That said, I don't think there was actually anything about the topic that warranted closing. Nor do I think your language actually was offensive.

*edit: might also have been the comments at the end getting snippy. Tapas sometimes over reacts to nipping any hint of drama in the bud

Speaking Personally: so mod mode off for the record

Aside from the parts you already addressed you say "I...don't see the value in telling people that they are the 'wrong' ethnicity to participate in a cute art challenge...??"
By using 'value' along with the double question marks, it kind of charges the question to make you seem more outraged than you are.

And in the final paragraph it sort of reads as a snowballing of passion that, for people who are unfamiliar with you personally or your post history, can see as incendiary.

Of course, I can't personally speak for anyone who can or did get offended by your topic, but that's one way I can imagine them viewing it.

Having been on the forums a long while, I'm familiar with you and know you're pretty harmless. But keep in mind this place gets a lot of new people and lurkers who don't always post or make themselves known.

Just for the record, I see/use double question marks as a signal of genuine confusion, not necessarily emotional investment.
But even if I was emotionally invested (say, a white friend was affected by this and I was concerned on their behalf) is that automatically wrong?? If I was outraged...kind of like I am now, and just wanted a straight answer, is that not allowed??

Why should it be frowned upon to show any hint of emotion when discussing a sensitive subject, even if your words are otherwise civil?? Apparently civility isn't enough, you have to have the 'correct personality' (and punctuation, apparently) to be allowed to say your piece...?

Here's the thing about that...I don't mind. ._.

I never have; if anyone was angry about what I wrote, and/or wanted to ask me about why I * appeared * to feel a certain way about the issue (because apparently that was the scariest part...), I would have been more than happy to talk to them and explain further, and hopefully get an interesting discussion out of it. That's...kind of the whole point.

Now, for an outside authority to come in and close down the whole discussion, that says more than just "someone might've gotten upset". It says that the topic/viewpoint itself is inherently "too upsetting" by some relatively objective measure, and that the forum would be better off if it didn't exist.

So far I haven't seen justification for a condemnation of that magnitude. The most I've been told is that the way I talk (not the things I say, merely the way I say them) doesn't sit well with certain people...which feels a bit discriminatory, if I'm being honest.

I'm not sure how to make myself consistently meet someone's set of arbitrary standards for how I should speak (mind you, when I get explicitly snippy/sarcastic in less-attention-grabbing art-related topics, it goes completely unnoticed), and I really don't think it's fair to demand that from me.

i.e. if one completely sugarcoats everything and accepts to erase their own personality they might be allowed to not get censored.
This is going with this disastrous idea that what is important is people's perception and not the poster's intent. Which is exactly doing the contrary that what is wanted.
By asking posters to be intensely 'polite' and careful, it is completely shutting off all the people who are not entirely socially adapted (would it he because of cultural differences, disabilities or other).
Extremely counterproductive. Just disgusting.

F*ck it; new strategy: take the funkiest stuff you've seen going on on Twitter and start topics about those things...! >:T

It's a while since I've covered any borderline offensive subject matter...ah, those were the days~.

^^I find this to be a huge red flag.

In these years reading your posts and responses you always reasonable and I respect you so much. I don't even disagree with what you are pointing out. I understand what you are saying.
I just want to add is not like people can't clarify what they mean when a comment/post rubs us the wrong way. It's not like we can't speak to each other anymore in a civilized way.

Closing threads so early when the intention is really vague makes some of us lose interest in engaging in topics with certain "difficulty" because even using the wrong word can make people misunderstand our intentions and cause the closing of the thread. Many of us have English as a second language or come from different countries and is easy to be misunderstood. Sometimes as a foreigner, you don't understand social issues the same level as the person who lives there, is not that people are purposefully being insensitive. Talking to each other can help sort out why is the person taking so much offense.

What I loved about Tapas is that we were able to discuss certain topics and exchange ideas with very smart people from all walks of life and ethnicities. When people have misunderstandings or don't like the approach to a topic the can ask the author for clarification. It has happened before and people learned from each other instead of just assume someone is trolling, shut them down, and erase their opinion.

I don't expect tolerance on flat out incendiary or insulting comments. Just that hopefully we can encourage each other to exchange points of view even when we disagree and can sort out our disputes without turning this into a shitshow.

Without context, sure; I'll admit the intro sounds off. But if you actually:
(a) Read the content of the post, or
(b) Have been on the forum long enough to know who I am and what I mean by those things

...you shouldn't find it problematic. And anyone who has the authority to close the topic should ideally be able to check off at least one of those boxes.

Mod mode still off-

It's not necessarily frowned upon but it should just be noted that you can't control how others will act or react in your thread.
You've had plenty of other topics before that stayed open pretty long with civil discussions. And those were great! But clearly with this thread it had potential to and did rub some people the wrong way as the replies got off topic really quickly without trying to address the initial question you posited. And because it veered so quickly, that was a call for a bit of early intervention.

Gotta second this point. The harsh truth is that not everyone is skilled enough on the art of rethoric. Its a skill that is taken for granted and rarely is explicitly taught.

I agree that politeness is expected and fundamental to a degree, but if we become nitpicky about tiny details of form above the meaning and intent, we may fall into a bizarre form of censoring.

I don't know, but these forums have always seemed a lot more oriented towards talking shop about comics and writing and publishing than about the social side of things, and topics that discuss sensitive issues can very often get tense and ruin the mood.

actually....Tapas itself has adressed social issues.

And talking and adressing said issues is a good thing. Let's not pretend is a bad thing per se.

I agree that not everyone handle said topics in a constructive way, but trying to remove these is like banning nuts in a country because someone is allergic.

Gonna take the chance to insist in a category for sensitive topics. People who are not interested in these can block them and people interested can have a positive debate with less drama. It`s a win-win for moderators and users alike.

I read the original post and I’m honestly a little baffled at how you recognize the importance of giving POC creators a space but insinuating that these redrawing challenges are somehow excluding white creators. That sentiment contradicts the “point” you claim to understand.

I’ve been following along on twitter with the redrawing of anime characters and saw the black artist who drew Princess Peach, got harassed for it, and even had someone redraw her Peach. And whether it seems that way or not, black creators get excluded out of spaces all the time. Case in point, these redrawing challenges and how everyone is up in arms about “black washing” characters and thinking that it holds the same weight as “white washing” (spoiler alert, it doesn’t).

I think the issue comes in is, as other have said, if you had a genuine concern/comment/question, then an actual question would have gotten better reception than asking why it’s a problem then providing a biased assessment of the situation. While I’m sure you didn’t mean it, it came off dismissive to black creators and other POC creators who already fight twice as hard to get half the recognition oftentimes.

And if this is reminiscent of the food topic, this is my hot take: just because you don’t see an issue with something doesn’t mean that an issue isn’t there. Please take the time to listen to POC when they have a problem with something rather than saying, nah or well actually.

I did read the entire post, and it's made no difference to me. It came off as baity, for lack of a better term and you prefacing it with the abovemetioned text didn't make it any better.

"...the funkiest stuff you've seen going on on Twitter."

Then you go on to describe something that is essentially a non-issue. White folk not being able to participate in something that PoC created and popularised. And to that point, I saw no consensus amongst black artists that white artists or any non-black PoC couldn't participate, just a lot of dissent towards characters being melinated. Receipts? Also calling the situation "funky" comes off as tone deaf.

Even if white folk were told to leave this space for PoC creators, i don't see how that would be such a big deal. They're free to start their own trends just like everyone else. Marginalised creators have had to deal with being excluded for decades but white creators can't sit out one trend? One event?

"It's a while since I've covered any borderline offensive subject matter...ah, those were the days~."

This sounds like you have a history of stirring the pot and seeing who's attracted to or put off by the smell. Which is again, quite baity and attention seeky. I avoid these kinds of posts because it comes off as OP trying to drill their PoV into everyone else and not actually trying to have a conversation.

Mod mode still off-

I totally agree with you! It was such a great time when you knew just about every avatar on the forums and know when someone was joking or not, or if they needed more time to articulate their point.

However as this forum has grown a lot in the past couple of years, that familiarity has waned. More new faces, fewer old ones. Not that it's a bad thing, it's just that everyone needs a bit of time to get to know each other and acclimate to personalities and posting styles.

And because of the growth, there is definitely a higher chance of trolls, so we have to be on the lookout for instigators as well as get to know new folks who might just be a little awkward.
The mods aren't alone in this, users are still free to flag things that are questionable and it will go to review.

I agree we users can help the mods too. Asides of flagging, which is still imported to shut down the trolls, I think we can help the threads to stay on topic, don't be assholes with new people, and set the tone for a reasonable exchange instead of immediately turn things into a brawl. :sweat_smile: