I hear you.
I understand this may create extra work for us, but I'd imagine it'd be no more work than maintaining the Intro | Feedback | Shoutout area with repeat topics.
Unfortunately, the way the forums are now, the time and work that would go into splitting a category would be astronomical. As each topic would have to be moved by hand into a new category.
I also feel uncomfortable at the idea of moving someone's topic to an amateur category. I can imagine that it would be more disheartening than asking for a little more information.
My main goal is to give first-time requesters an idea of what they're asking for, which, in turn, helps us understand what they want. It doesn't have to be strictly regulated, if someone misses one of the points but has the gists of it, I'd be inclined to let them be.
I think the list you have is a good starting point. It might dissuade those who haven't put that much thought into starting a collab from posting and possibly wasting someone's time. I think that's most people issue with some of the collab posts in the category; they feel like a waste of time even to just look at the post.
I think it's a good starting point, like other people have mentioned, to leave a form for people to actually form a pitch before they post so they don't just go "hey I gotta great idea for a manga!" Something that is needed is a requirement to show a sample of their previous work, let it be in writing or even a draft of a comic because there are far too many collabs that are so afraid of leaking their ideas that we can't actually form an opinion. People interested need to know what level the op is at and I think some people are hiding it by not showing any of their portfolio.
And what may help as well is to give an explanation of how copyright works. Most of the collabs I see are about splitting profits but they make no mention of who owns what, or if they are allowed to do things off tapas with their artwork like make merch, post to other platforms, etc. This is basic stuff for illustrators but it feels like most people who are new to this don't know how to make a contract for that or that this is something they would have to even think about--that most illustration contracts for art actually have a limit to how long you can use it or what countries it's used in, etc. I'm sure that for writers there's similar copyright issues they would run into as well, like as to if they still completely own their characters and story, and how much is the artist's and how much is the authors, and that if (it would never happen) but if they had someone else who wanted to buy the story for film or whatever, who owns it? Who are they buying it from?
Like most collabs are younger people who are just starting out who just want to sandbox together a comic, but you gotta start learning about copyright at some point, and it's best to avoid confusion over who owns what when several artists and writers work on a project, and then one just decides to split. You have to know if they split, do they take their characters? Do they not?
Good catch! Added it to the list.
Also a really good point. Copyright is such a large topic, it may be beneficial to link to resources to keep the guideline/rule post from being overwhelming. Like a list titled "First time? Things to consider", which can link to a number of things that go into detail.
I'm not asking anyone sort the existing posts just make a new empty category for Pros going forward and leave the old one alone.
I wouldn't waste time going back.
Just make a new one with the new rules in place from the start and ensure everyone knows that's how its going to operate.
I mean if these new rules go into the old category you'd either have to do the same thing or leave the old posts alone.
I'd rather give people the option of using the more free-form category if they prefer or feel uncomfortable sharing details. (Sure you and I know there isn't any harm sharing ideas, but I think everyone is entitled to their view on that. I'm not sure I'd want to forbid collabs where they refuse to share details publicly.)
Leave the pro section for the well organized and preferably paying.
CastingCallClub does something similar for independent video productions.
Now I'm currently right in the middle of a collab that came out of that section of the forum and its going fantastically and I know if these rules had been in place I might not have bothered posting it because at the time it was an undercooked idea I wasn't sure was worth developing. Still I found someone enthusiastic to work on it and through mutual trust and hard work we're very close to revealing something I'm damned proud of.
If my half-assed post had been shut down out the gate that one-shot would never have happened. It's why I'm taking this personally.
If that sort of semi-off-the-cuff idea pitching is no longer welcome in collab then I have little issue never using it again. I just feel you'd have thrown away the things that did work about it.
Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't feel like dancing around eggshells every time I wanna pitch an idea but I'm not 100% confident in it.
If I knew I'd effectively to fill out a form every time I had a stupid idea with potential I wouldn't have become a writer.
I wouldn't mind if I was ready to commit to the project but if I was I'd not be in collab looking for warm bodies, I tell you what.
Look I have no idea these will be enforced and that's the problem, I have to worry about without knowing so I'll feel like I have to jump through every hoop just so I don't have to go back and start over.
All I want to is advocate for a place where people can pitch ideas without feeling like they have everything figured out in advance because that is a tomb for creativity. (Plus how much of a collaboration can it be if its that far along and key members are not on board yet?)
Both styles have their positives and pitfalls and doing both feels like a decent compromise.
Maybe consider opening the new branch just as an experiment? see how they work alongside each other then re-evaluate.
I argue that it's less about having a full idea out in the open and more about being completely honest with your intent.
Something along the lines of
"Hi there, I'm so-and-so. I have an upcoming idea for a fantasy-romance comic featuring dragons, princesses, and knights. I don't have a full plot fleshed out, but I do have some character sheets and written ideas here:
(shows example)
I've done work in mostly fantasy-romance, which can be found here: (show examples).
As of now, I'm just looking for someone to bounce off ideas with (fellow creator, anyone who likes fantasy-romance, etc). I don't really know if this will be a long-term collab or a short-term, but as of now, because the idea isn't fully developed, I would just like someone who is interested to talk about some concepts. Once we have a full idea, the idea of unpaid or paid will become a question."
I honestly feel a lot of these collabs go south because they leave people hanging. They expect everyone to be mind readers or to do to the dms, eager to hear more. But it's just easier to show what you have so far, what you've made so far, and be honest about your intentions, along with being reasonable.
Again, these aren't necessarily set in stone rules. It's less about filling out a form and more about people being able to look at your pitch and go "ok, I understand what you're selling" without needing to ask. Because, as you said before, most people just ignore it if they don't understand right from the start.
I'd agree if it weren't for this line right here.
Enforce was Cains word not mine.
Have a space where these guideline are 'Enforced' and one where they are not. Once I have to worry about a 'guidelines enforcer' and have to dance around their approval then the pressure to have an answer to every question goes up considerably because its impossible to know where the line is. These guidelines are too broad so the safest course is to have all your ducks in a row because you don't wanna deal with the 'guidelines enforcer'
I know I don't. Don't need the extra stress if I'm not 100% behind my idea.
Let this be an opt-in program. Then nobody can complain if their post gets flagged
Let me decide if my stupid idea is worth the extra effort and worry about having a mod picking over my pitch.
By the nature of these loose rules not even the mods know truely what the line is and my judgement and theirs are almost certainly not always going to match up. I don't want to deal with that unless I'm SURE I have a killer idea and by that point I doubt I'll have much use for a collab thread.
There is a VAST difference between a marginally prepared pitch and what these guidelines suggest. I'd keep my marginally prepared pitches to the unenforced section and save my ready to rumble pitches for the enforcers to chew on.
I wouldn't risk posting a moderately prepared pitch under these guidelines. No WAY I'd be comfortable doing that. If I'm going to be judged its going to be something I'm prepared to show off. Not if there is a risk of failure involved. Having the enforcers breathing down my neck about the guidelines is definitely failure for a socially awkward person like myself.
Because sometimes you have an idea and you're not 100% about it yet and you wanna see if anyone is interested in developing it. Why would you put all your time and effort into a project you aren't sure you have the team to actually put into motion?
why are you seeking collaborators if the project is already fully baked? why would anyone join a collab where most of the creative work is already done?
All your suggestion of a unenforced categories does is guarantee the same horrible pitches have a place to go and keep doing the same ineffectual things they've been doing.
If the goal of having a collaboration thread is to facilitate future collaborations then the status quo has failed and flipped to actively discouraging them.
Let them try something differently.
My last pitch was almost exactly like that and it has been going awesome. I got a damn fine artist on board and we are really close to being done with the whole thing. This system has worked great for me.
Would my pitch be found acceptable by the new guidelines?
Hell. No.
Here it is for context. The stuff coming out of Dogness has been awesome and I'm more than willing to go to the mat for it.
Why would you put all your time and effort into a project when you aren't sure you have the team to actually out into motion?
Because we as creators simply want to create, regardless of what stops us.
Why are you seeking collaborators if the project is already fully baked?
Because we want to see someone skillfully execute our idea for us, and getting someone to work with us takes a convincing, well-thought plan.
Why would anyone join a collab where most of the creative work is already done?
Because there are tired artists like me who just wanna draw without putting mental effort into thinking up story. The only reason I offer to draw for collabs is because I trust that I ONLY have to do my part as an artist, and nothing more.
None of these are universals. They work for you. They don't work for me.
I don't create for the sake of it. I create to bring people joy, first and foremost. I wouldn't put so much effort in if it was just for myself.
If I'm making a meal for myself it'll be fine, I'll try sure. If I'm making a meal for others I'm going to put my best into it. Because I'm doing it for them.
I make comics for the people who enjoy reading them. I sure don't make them to make money.
I not only pay my artists I take their creative vision into account because my work isn't about me or my vision.
Ask Hufe, Ask Dogness. Hell I've got all the paypal receipts to prove I am not only serious I put my money where my mouth is.