Is toxic femininity a thing?

[DokiDokiTsuna]

but the loud minority is what the media sees

Maybe, but as critically-thinking individuals with free will, we are supposed to be able to separate that from reality if need be. To let only "what the media sees" shape our outlook on the world is to choose to live in ignorance, especially in this day and age.

but i was told not to engage so i'm going to stop my responses here

??? ...Okey doke

[sarrowsmith10]

I'd say that toxic femininity is definitely a thing.

Mom-shaming.

The constant shaming from one to another about EVERYTHING. Examples: You should only breastfeed your baby! But not too long because that's gross. Or you should be proud and nurse your baby in public, or you should cover up because no one wants to see your boobs. Or you should only feed your kids organic, home made food. Or if you are a stay at home mom you are lazy and not contributing to society, but if you go to work you don't love your kids because you are having daycare raise them... etc. etc. toxic femininity is never being able to win- you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Kittosaurus]

Yes, there are very cruel and mean people posing as feminists out there, but that doesn't mean that's "what feminism has become". The worst extremes of any segment of a population do not get to redefine the identity of a population.

I think the problem stems from the word itself... for a movement based on equality for the sexes - the word itself is well not very equal. Unfortunately it is the extremists and those that shout the loudest that tend to get the most publicity. Sadly there are a lot of people who don't know what the true meaning of feminism is, and just associate the movement with men haters.

We are never going to have any sort of equality while we have the constant need to label everything! Making more categories to include everyone is still just putting people in different boxes - even if we are trying to be nice about it.

When we take away all the labels and look at all people as just equal human beings then we can make some progress.

[spadesart]

id say yes, but not in the same way that toxic masculinity presents itself.

i'd define toxic femininity as women like conservative mothers raising their daughters to be subservient and invisible, forcing them to present hyperfemininely or expecting them to do housework while their male siblings can sit around and do nothing. my mother is a prime example of someone who perpetuates this type of parenting, telling me to my face that if anything happened to her she expected me to throw out my whole life plan to become, basically a maid who cooks and cleans for my dad and brother for the rest of their lives. it really did impact me in a way that destroyed my self esteem and turned me into a socially anxious doormat.

when i got my pixie cut she took a bunch of pictures of my (ugly, ugly flat hideous weighed down) long hair acting like she was losing a family member. she keeps pressuring me to find a boyfriend so i can settle down and dedicate my life to the children she expects me to have, to the point where she's recently been encouraging me to date men 6+ years older than me. telling me 'youre never gonna make a man happy if you keep doing/dont do x/y". ignoring what my interests were in exchange for pushing more feminine interests on me. not telling me what needs to be done in the house, but yelling at me because she expects me to already know what has or has not been done while i was at work all day.

its a very specific type of gender role that only women like my mom perpetuate.

[LordVincent]

Women who hate men aren't feminists, they're sexists by the same principle that men who hate women are sexists. If they claim to be feminists, they are lying and just trying to mask their sexism to justify it to themselves and people around them.

Sincerely, a feminist man.

(I intended to quote another post to tag onto a discussion some other members in this thread had but it refuses to let me mark and quote on my phone)

[punkarsenic]

i'd define toxic femininity as women like conservative mothers raising their daughters to be subservient and invisible, forcing them to present hyperfemininely or expecting them to do housework while their male siblings can sit around and do nothing.

YES

like, if we see toxic masculinity as how men uphold patriarchy at a cost to themselves and women (bc maintaining gender roles within patriarchy is maintaining patriarchy) then toxic femininity is how women uphold patriarchy at a cost to themselves and women. you see so often women instilling misogyny into their children, being misogynistic about eachother, tearing eachother down. in the ways toxic masculinity is an isolating cage, toxic femininity - hyper-performance of beauty standards, constant competition with other women, self-policing - is also an isolating cage.

people have mentioned mean girls, which is a brilliant example of this for a modern era - but i also feel like its the best thing abt the handmaids tale tv show? i have Problems with the show, but the way it shows how and why women uphold their own and eachothers oppression is really insightful. in a world where a womans worth is based on things like their attractiveness to men and conformity to femininity, women can feel like they have a lot to gain from conforming, and conformist women have a lot to gain from punishing those that dont conform. step up on the backs of others.

[Merle]

May I just say for a second how horrible your situation sounds and that I am truly sorry! I hope your mum will come to terms with you not being a houseslave one day, and more definitely that you will be able to overcome feeling like a doormat and any other types of anxiousness associated with such an unfair uprbringing Props to you for being outspoken about this and obviously being able to distance yourself from such a mindset, which is really not easy when you grow up like this!

[GamerPrincessXI]

[joannekwan]

@stnmaren your post reminded me of this one guy who is part of a conservative media outlet responding to the recent Gillette ad where he posted a picuture with his three children. He asked 'Hey, Gilette, does THIS offend you?" and in the picture, he and his two little boys were each carrying firearms while in the center his little girl did not.

I immediately thought 'Give your daughter a gun too! Fuck gender norms!" Naturally the red herring of the photo would be the topic of gun-rights and so forth, but the deeper seated issue is the strict boxing of gender norms and what is expected of each, at least was how I saw it.

[Ceru]

Thanks for elaborating but I think I'm still not really convinced what 'toxic femininity' is (or masculinity either). Because, going on your example, stereotyping and generalizing here, men tend to want to prove they're men by doing stuff to fit the box. Women don't usually need to do stuff to prove they're feminine unless they want to prove they're just as good as men so... or, that they feel they're not feminine enough? One example off the top of my head: a girl may feel she isn't feminine enough because her high school friends have had boyfriends, but she hasn't so maybe something is wrong with her. So I guess, exceptions but not the rule.

I'm more inclined to agree with MK_Wizard that the term is misused. Gender roles, misconceptions, expectations, stereotypes are what makes ideas of femininity and masculinity toxic, not the other way around. Because one can argue, what is wrong with a girl wanting to be girly because she likes being girly? And, what's wrong if a girl doesn't to be girlly because it was never in her nature to be one? Neither is wrong or toxic, but it can become one based on who is trying to impose it.

Using the Mean Girls movie that someone mentioned on here is what I'd consider an example of females expressing their aggressions. Girls are normally nutured to not show physical aggressions as boys from a young age (actually, almost everything non-physical), which is why they tend to be more passive aggressive because if you can't express it by punching someone, it's going to come out one way or another.

Also, for those that don't know the Mean Girls movie was based on the book Queen Bees and Wanna Bes by Rosalind Wiseman, a parenting book helping parents help their pre-teen and teenage girls as they navigate the cruel of being a girl in a girl's world. You don't need to be a parent to enjoy it

[indagold]

I dunno its hard to define when people act like when a women acts bad or out of place its from men's abuse and not that women have their own agency too. I think men and women live up to shitty standards and its not always because of male oppression, a lot of women are quick to blame men for these issues but some women foster an environment that breeds disgusting standards too without anyone making them do so based on gender alone. Like judging other women not living up to their ideals of what a women is in their eyes. So yeah I think its possible, I just wish people stop blaming the men every time a women is abusive lol

[joannekwan]

I think I'm still not really convinced what 'toxic femininity' is (or masculinity either).

Ok, here's an easy example for toxic masculinity: 'Boys don't cry. Emotions are a sign of weakness'
Penting up emotions without a healthy outlet, like talking it out in a safe environment, can lead to extreme behaviors.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Women don't usually need to do stuff to prove they're feminine unless they want to prove they're just as good as men so...
...One example off the top of my head: a girl may feel she isn't feminine enough because her high school friends have had boyfriends, but she hasn't so maybe something is wrong with her. So I guess, exceptions but not the rule.

First off, that's not even close to being "an exception to the rule". The story of a girl feeling left out or unfeminine because she doesn't have a boyfriend is so common it's practically a trope. =/ Not to mention all the other ways girls make other girls feel like less in order to make themselves feel like more, as people have listed in this topic already...

I think the confusion comes from the fact that...well, human society is a patriarchy for the most part. So even when we think about specific gender roles, we tend to think of them in a male-oriented view. Thus, males prove they're "manly" by doing things, and females prove they're "girly" by not doing things, or doing things for males.

It may look like, by comparison, women "don't need to do stuff to prove they're feminine", but it'll only look that way if you're expecting men and women to "prove it" in the same ways.

[Shanny8]

We are never going to have any sort of equality while we have the constant need to label everything! Making more categories to include everyone is still just putting people in different boxes - even if we are trying to be nice about it.

When we take away all the labels and look at all people as just equal human beings then we can make some progress.

THIS!!!!!!

While the Gillette commercial does send a much needed message, I kind of cringe at a lot of the feedback going on. Also, keep in mind- this message is being presented by a corporation that sells a product...and they will bend whichever way the wind is blowing to sell that product.

'youre never gonna make a man happy if you keep doing/dont do x/y"

What about making yourself happy? I dont get folks who think that someone else's happiness comes before your own- why cant they be mutual? Not saying "you"(@stnmaren)- sorry if it reads wrong- just generalizing...

[Cavechan]

Well, it's not my phrase, but I'll do my best: if you define toxic masculinity as all the harmful things men do to "prove" that they're men, then I'd respectively define toxic femininity as all the harmful things women do to "prove" that they're women (people have given lots of great examples already~).

With this definition, yes definitely! I would add in proving by putting down the opposite gender. I have seen it a lot and one of the reasons why I do not identify as a feminist.

Women who hate men aren't feminists, they're sexists by the same principle that men who hate women are sexists. If they claim to be feminists, they are lying and just trying to mask their sexism to justify it to themselves and people around them.

They are still feminists, albeit a different brand of feminism. I think it's important to realize that feminism has a spectrum just like many things and some people are unfortunately on the far end of that spectrum. "TERF" for example.

I think some more examples of toxic femininity: Women who expect me to be a feminist because I'm liberal and a woman. As if I'm not allowed to have my own thoughts, that I'm supposed to be part of a feminine hivemind and claim anyone who isn't part of it is being "brainwashed by the patriarchy". Same for conservative women, women who voted for Trump, etc.

[LCT_m_a_d]

Generally with a phrase like "toxic" that's frequently and often misleadingly used, I think its best to define the adjective in its own right (aside from it's actual definition), before associating it with anything else.

Not only is it better for the sake of determining what qualifies, it's better that we learn to communicate in a more specific and negotiable way

[TAMAnnoying]

I think my first realization that toxic femininity was a thing was Mary Jane from the Spiderman movies. Not only is she a trophy for the man to win but she owns this ideology in her own manipulative way. I cant enjoy the second movie anymore cause half of it is literally this women going around telling her men that they have to prove to them they're more worth it then the other guy by giving her the right kind of attention. She never makes a choice on her own, everything has to be peters choice. If he cant make the right choice then its his fault that shes marrying another guy (while also pulling the other guy around on a string while flirting her ass off with peter. She is manipulative and awful and I cant stand her.

I do agree that, yes technically these are toxic people not toxic genders. BUT the idea behind the terms toxic femininity and toxic masculinity (at least to my understanding) for once doesn't actually have to do with the genders per-say and more to do with the actions, toxic masculinity denies emotional feelings and to get around most obstacles in life you use physical violence, while toxic femininity is more defined as pacifist aggressive and manipulation of emotional feelings.

I COULD always be completely wrong about these interpretations tho, I admit im not a professor on this and the last time i did a deep study of it was back in college 5 years ago. (and when i watched fight club for the first time).

Over all dont interact with people that are toxic and play with your feelings and emotions either on a physical plane or mental.

[mrtoontastic]

Why is this a question?

[joannekwan]

Because DokiDoki likes sparking discussions. xD

[TAMAnnoying]

Because discussions are good for the soul