Feb 2019
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Feb 2019
Feb 2019
graveweaver
Feb '19

I trace some things for certain comic pages. For example, this desk:

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Here's the image I traced, taken in my own home:
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A lot of times, tracing is an option because you just don't have time to set up perspective lines and block out a desk for a scene that's going to be scanned over in 1 second. However, I think, you must have ownership of the photo being traced for this to be ethical. There are places online where you can buy commercial rights to entire photo packs, and most people have a camera/phone where they can go outside and take pictures. If I need a certain scene, I'll go to a location with that scene and pull out my phone and snap some pictures. If it's something impossible for me to get easily (like maybe some ancient ruins) I'll go buy the rights to a photo pack.

It's also important to note while I do trace some aspects of my comics from photos, I could absolutely draw them by hand if I needed to. You should be able to, too. I use tracing as a method to speed up my process to get those frustrating 40-60 pages of webtoon out weekly, not as a crutch because I don't know how to draw a desk. :stuck_out_tongue:

BobbyjoeX
Feb '19
DokiDokiTsuna

the faces of the drawing and the photo match perfectly, if you watched D'angelo's video, you would have seen that. as for the credit, the model herself had been going after him for months til he finaslly put her insta in the description

as for me, i use those 3d models on clip studio, makes the page making process faster

DokiDokiTsuna
Feb '19

Did they use another picture in the video? Because the one on the thumbnail clearly isn't the same. For example, the real person has hair behind her neck almost reaching her shoulder, while in the drawing it only goes halfway. And the shading pattern in the hair isn't the same either, let alone the orientation of the strands...

Also, her face isn't as wide in the drawing...it really just looks like a carefully-referenced copy, not a trace.

silverraven0
Feb '19
DokiDokiTsuna

Me being me I'll still say that it is tracing. Since he put the model picture on the layer itself and draw from there.

I'm here on the ground zero because I did say I don't know any of them or how they work, but it is fair to be biased, and I made this thread for a healthy debate, so let's debate, but don't go overly severe. ^^

DokiDokiTsuna
Feb '19

:imp: Hehehe...okay~

In that case, I think we need to establish a definition for what tracing is.

I see tracing as literally copying someone else's work, line by line. You don't do anything except follow the strokes put down by another artist. That's what makes it dishonest. It's like re-typing someone else's essay and putting your name at the top: you put in the physical work, sure, but none of the skill.

The fact that someone else's work was involved in your product, however, is not dishonest in and of itself. Referencing the information in someone else's essay is okay. Quoting someone is okay, as long as you credit them. And even using someone's essay as a scaffold (following their organization to help your own words flow better) is okay, because in the end the words themselves came from you. Whether you need to credit them for that or not honestly depends on how deeply the scaffold is buried.

There's a lot of nuance involved in this topic, and I don't like how people pretend the issue is black-and-white (either the art is 100% yours or you're a tracer) in order to shame and defame decent artists. =/

silverraven0
Feb '19

Hmm, that is true enough. Maybe my understanding about tracing need to be upgraded.

Anyone want to educate me a little bit more about tracing?

NickRowler
Feb '19

This is how I feel...

If you are a noob and you are tracing something for your own personal use (like putting up on your bedroom wall), that's fine.

If you are tracing stuff and posting it online for free and giving credit, I guess that could be a grey area. I think it depends on who created the source and posting rules on the site you are posting.

If you are posting stuff for profit or on a site with strict rules, you should not be tracing unless it is your own photo or you obtain credit for a photo or image you are using (like those site where you pay royalities for images) even then, it is still good to give credit.

Jenny-Toons
Feb '19
1

Might I bring up the topic of Master Studies?

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Now...Master studies aren't exactly tracing in the sense that we use it now. It's more involved than simply tracing over a piece of work. You actually have to do your best to replicate what the artist did with the original piece. Moreover, the idea behind these master studies is to work on topics like shading, lighting, structure, etc. You break down the OG piece to its foundation and then try to rebuild the same piece again.

Master Studies are examples of replicating original works; maybe not tracing, but it felt relevant to the example of this artist drawing that model. They're more of a higher example of when people do re-draws of their favorite screenshot from an anime or a show.

Of course, the difference with Master studies is that there is more credit given to the original artist, and you can kinda tell the replicate artist didn't do the OG piece because most of the time, they're out and about saying "yeah, I did a Master Study of this piece by -insert artist-"

I do feel that if there was no obvious credit given, it should've happened, and I do feel that if you're making money from traces or replicates, you ought to be giving royalties to the OG artist. But, if it's just for learning or just showing fanart, like in the case of Master Studies, it's all good. Just show credit (even if it's as simple as "oh! here's a picture I drew of these people I saw downtown!").

JeanGuillet
Feb '19

Copyright law & the standards of fair use, particularly the definition of 'transformative' is the guideline, whatever artists feel about the ethics of the matter. and some of the court cases in the US have been brutal. every artist needs to check out the law.5

bonus link: Pixabay4 is an great source of royalty free stock photos.

BlueDragon
Feb '19
Jenny-Toons

Yeah, I remember in my art classes, the professor made it very clear when we were doing these, we HAD to write "Copy of _____ by ____" on the pieces we copied. One made us also print off the original and set it side by side (that was one class.)

I tend to think tracing backgrounds of things you photograph, or royalty free with credit (for backgrounds) would be okay if you're in a hurry. Or stuff you have already drawn. But..I also think at some time, learning to draw those on your own is important. I am still trying to fix backgrounds of older versions of my comic to be all hand drawn...just to avoid copy right issues...and make the backgrounds fit in better with my style (it's jarring, I've found, to have a beautiful background, and the characters don't mesh XD )

silverraven0
Feb '19
JeanGuillet

My English seems unable to comprehend what they we're saying here. ^^;

Can you please be kind enough to summarise it in simpler terms?

craftymarten
Feb '19

I think tracing is fine as long as you aren't tracing a copyrighted photo and you're being transparent about it. There's nothing worse than someone obviously tracing something but when you ask they say "maybe I used it as reference I can't remember".
In my comic I just can't draw cars at all so I tend to take a free-to-use photo of any car from a similar angle and redraw it into the model of car I want. Whenever I try drawing cars from references I end up with a wonky box on wheels. I do try to draw them without tracing first, I'll get there one day.

As for Holly I'm personally not a big fan of hers (her tone makes me feel like I'm being told off all the time) but every artist works differently. She said she traced over it just to see what the position would be like before drawing it herself and had forgotten tot ake it out before showing the WIP and no one can really disprove that.
It's really not fair to destroy someone's career over what could have been a mistake. Even if it was done on purpose a simple "it's not ok to trace from things that are copyrighted." would do. Not tearing the person down and ignoring their body of work that isn't traced.

Rodimus13
Feb '19
silverraven0

There are laws that say what is and is not fair to do with someone else art.

One example- as an educator I can use up to 10% of a movie IF it relates to my class without having to pay fees or for more copies of the movie. I am also expected to give credit. If it uses more than that, I and my school get into trouble.

In the USA, there have been fights over what counts as "fair use" for the sake of making money. Fan art is ok- technically most fan art sold is not unless it meets certain conditions (like it is a parody).

Rights to various media expire after a point. For example we have so many remakes of Alice In Wonderland because it's now open to most everyone to use without permission from the author other family.

The bonus like is a website where photos were put up that the people who took it said "Hey, anyone can use this for whatever. It's cool."

Someone let me know if I got something wrong. I woke up pretty recent and haven't had my caffeine yet.

RiriNin_Luna
Feb '19

I personally think it would depend on how it is done and presented (?)
There are many professionals who do overpainting or tracing as practice
the strokes, the lines, the structure
if it was traced over it would kind of retain in your memory on how it's done hence it would be easier to do it without retracing or even without a ref!
I think it's acceptable if credit is given to where it's due but if it was claimed to as being entirely 'your original' art then that kinda over steps the line
Thats for more on the ethical
but if we're talking about the law that's a more complicated topic :eyes:
Because generally up until the time limit before a work becomes public domain, everything that is similar or violates the right of the artist on their work it's illegal.It includes tracing even referencing without permission but actually nobody gives a duck about it because morals and public image

sooo in summary it would depend on the context

LT1986
Feb '19

I don't trace. The only thing that I would do that is similar to tracing is take a picture that I have drawn in the past and paste it to a new picture that has other things that I'm drawing or going to draw in it. I would never trace anyone else's art work, even if I get their permission and plan on giving them money and/or credit (publicly).

Now if tracing helps other artists improve their art work by learning what to do in the future without tracing, I have no issue with this as long as the original artist gets credit and gives their permission. I still wouldn't do it, but I do understand that not everyone has the same methods of training to improve their art skills.

skicoak
Feb '19

Everyone talks about the "legalities" of it but let's be serious for a moment...

Greg Land has, and continues to, work for all the major U.S. comic publishers with no legal repercussions for a clearly established pattern of tracing/under sketching. There's obviously some pretty broad legal interpretation involved when the final product has enough artistic differences/alterations to establish the original as just a reference.

This isn't to engage in judging any individuals personal beliefs on the practice but there's not a lot merit to waving the legal system around as a deterrent.

silverraven0
Feb '19

I googling around about the difference between tracing, copying and referencing since YouTube have been shoving a lot of that (plus arts dramas that I didn't even know actually exist) to my face.

Then on the very first link is this :

I think it's pretty legit, and with that there's my understanding :

Tracing : you're tracing another person arts,pictures/models, by putting the arts below it and trading it line by line, maybe with some difference from the original.

Copying : you're copying another person arts, pictures/models (like Jenny explanation), but it is not the same as tracing, since you made the arts yourself but with no much difference from the original.

Referencing : you draw your own arts by using the original picture as reference, but not copying since you're not drawing it the same and only took parts of the reference and upgrade everything with your own style.

At least this my understanding of it and my explanation might be a bit wonky but you jet what I mean.

Feel free to point out what I say wrongly.

vothnthorvaldson
Feb '19

I don't know if it's really on topic, but there is a technique I used a lot for tedious and precise biology drawings (like microscopy drawings for example), that I find help me a lot with my comic.

This works for standard references pictures or my own references, I would not use it for other people's art as it's still too close to tracing.

I first draw what I want to draw trying to replicate my reference the closest possible, then (if I'm not happy or the precision is very important like it can be in microscopy), I trace the reference on another layer or tracing paper and I check where I was wrong. Depending on context I will use the tracing (if it's my own picture or my own drawings for ex), or redraw something altered, that fit somewhere between my first draft and the trace. It helps me understand what my common errors are, how my (strong) asymmetry right/left works, and ultimately helped me rely less on that part-tracing method.