23 / 23
Jun 2018

Are you feeling difficulties drawing or writing wise?

First of all, about being believable... Honestly, if your goal is more realism, a shit load of research is in order. Youtube videos and stuff.
Now, for most of things, fiction is fiction, and the most important thing is verisimilitude. It's more important for stuff to be consistent inside your story, following your logic and laws instead of real world's. This is maybe obvious, but it's something that runs through all your story and it extends to your fight scenes. I mean, there are already super powers, right?

Drawing wise I can't help you a lot, just tell you about what I like in the artists I feel excel at it. I read a lot of shonen manga and superhero comics, so I read loads and loads of fights. Yeah, in martial arts stuff differences between real fighting styles shine through, but for the rest, what makes a fight scene visually nice to me is, to boil it down to the bare minimum, a mix of dynamic angles and pacing. Mangas like Dragon Ball, Bleach and Vagabond have all different pacing and angle choices, but all three exploit these to the maximum, creating some nice stuff. In US superhero comic books, things like The Ultimates by Bryan Hitch and Ultimate Spiderman by Mark Bagley come to mind.
Writing wise though, besides finding a way to use different powers (One Piece is masterful in this), I feel a great fight scene has to be an extension of your story. More impressive than a great flashy fight scene, the most important thing is why the fighting is happening and what does it mean for those involved.

@phenylketonurics I'm not that fond of MCU movies fight scenes because to me it kind of goes against what I feel makes the best fight scenes. It's all flash and it feels like most don't mean anything to the story. That said, choreograph wise they're indeed super tight! Technically, they're impressive as all heck

Oh yeah, MCU movies fights are like, 100% eye-candy, hah, I totally agree. And regarding this:

... a thousand times "aye". Succinct, efficient, cut 'n clean shots in comics make for the best fight sequences. Pacing is key and I personally have edited down a raw 3.5 page action fight scene to 5 panels because critical delving into drawing out hit/recovery/return can horribly muddy the overall vision.

A happy medium may be grabbing from "keyframes" and adapting lightly. Analysing is crucial for establishing the intended style, just gotta be sure to separate what doesn't contribute to the story directly from the final piece.

Thank you this helps a lot ^-^ I think I'll shift my usual figure studies into fighting figure studies :joy:

I don't have a specific style in mind, since I don't really know about them.

My main character is supposed to just go with the flow while fighting, I imagine him just learning by doing. Through growing up getting into fights getting beaten up, learning from that stuff.

Against that I have the "heroes", in the universe of my comic there's training for heroes, since they're funded by the government and public. I imagine them actually learning techniques and having a group + a mentor.

Yes, it can be an eye-opener going through fight pose studies and suddenly coming up with ideas to put in action. You'll be brewin' scenes in no time.

And ah, cool! You've put an awesome amount of thought into this already. I really dig that the main character learns his own way of fighting by trial-and-error growing up. Have you already shown it or do you think you'll show flashbacks of his younger years' experience in fights? That could be an interesting dynamic to parallel during the bigger, veteran fights he goes into at present.

Ultimately, your intended fighting style includes hero techniques adapted from the mentor in conjunction with his "street smarts" way of defending himself... very rad concept.

I agree.

The only reason I'm drawing a fighting scene right now is because it's important for the story. Setting up things, and establishing that my main character in fact doesn't really have control over their power. All that stuff.

It's also quite short, since not much fighting is happening. I guess it's more of a "surprise motherfudger" scene, because the MC gets jumped (literally), then choked and unmaked. After getting over the shock, he free's himself and accidentally blows the attacker and himself up (non deadly) ^^'

My problem with a lot of shonen manga or Movies is that it sometimes feels like they're fighting 24/7, I guess it's kinda what you would expect from an action or fighting genres, but after some time it get's so boring. At least to me.

W.e.c.c.

Weight
Environment
Consistancy
Character

I heard it on a steven universe rant and i try to follow this formula myself... although i may have gotten one of the Cs wrong, but it doesnt matter since both are still true

Probably one point of reference I remember having for fighting/action scenes was this post on tumblr:

Some tips may lean a bit more towards writing but there's a good bunch of info that can be put to use. As for drawing, especially if your looking for fluid or dynamic posing it doesn't hurt to do some online searching for pose/motion references. i'm not sure if it's pose maniacs or another site but there was definitely someone who had short video clips to reference motion for certain fighting styles

A LOT of what some of the other responses said- also; RESEARCH. Watch movies with fight scenes- read comics with fight scenes. More than mimicking what you see, learn about the dynamics, the momentum, and the FOLLOWTHROUGH.

Physics: if you slap someone with your right hand, their face is going to roll to your left(their right)- same thing vice versa if you use your left. Now, if a super hero slugs a villain(with his right fist), the force is more harder, so not only would the villain's face roll to the left, but the power of that punch would also force his body to twist along with it; and of course if the punch is REALLY powerful, it would send said villain flying to the left. Same rules apply with kicking as well- if you punch/kick with right, head/body goes left...punch/kick with left, head/body goes right. If you punch/kick up, head body goes up and back; punch/kick down, head/body goes forward and down.

I was thinking about this thread and I realized I may have narrow it down a little bit too hard. As with most things, when you narrow it too much, it can become limiting.
I stand by what I said about meaning in fight scenes and etc, but I was thinking about it and there are some scenes that didn't need to be that long or just didn't need to be there at all, but there are unforgettable.
So I'd like to mention some scenes that are amazing, though the story could flow without them or with them in a reduced form. Those scenes are, from a pure craft standpoint, absolutely outstanding. I feel that for those kinds of scenes to work though, they need room to breathe.


I mean, it doesn't get more impressive than this. Raw, brutal, continuous shot. This is a technical marvel. It's amazing. It's also not that necessary. You can say it shows how badass Oh Dae-Su is, but by this point we kind of get it, even if he didn't do anything as impressive as this.
A cool variation is the Daredevil S01E02 corridor scene, clearly inspired by it, in which is feels much more necessary to the plot to me.


I've been thinking about Moon Knight #5, by Warren Ellis and Declan Shalvey (a masterpiece of a 6 issue run), which is one loooong continuous 20 pages fight scene. It's just Moon Knight going up on a building, beating every single person in it. I mean, you can say (and I would agree with you) that the fight, in this issue, IS the story. It's long and awesome and it's an impressive action issue.

You said your scene is more of an explosive kind of thing. Have you checked Warren Ellis stuff? I feel like he's the best ''done in one'' writer in mainstream US comics. He's really precise and his fight scenes are usually really short but violent and explosive. It's another reason this MK stands out to me. I'd recommend this issue, his Karnak run and The Wild Storm #6 for recent examples of these explosive scenes.

I feel like this is my subject - as both an action writer and an ex-student of martial arts.

The most important things are:

  • The space. The environment should play a part in how the fight works. Items from, or elements of the setting will impact how the parties fight, how much space they utilise... Determine what the range and freedom of movement will be.

  • Everything should flow. It's very similar to choreographing a dance routine because there will be key moves / poses but the movement in-between is really important to make things move smoothly. Make sure you are constantly factoring in what someone has just done when considering what they will do next. (If they just punched or kicked, they will need to regain stance or move into a second attack right away, for example)

  • Power scaling is really important. Establish exactly how strong each character's abilities are, especially in relation to each other. A character should always have consistent ability. I see a lot of stories where in one fight a character is able to perform all sorts of maneuvers but in a later fight when they're supposedly stronger their opponent is able to dance around them. Just make sure you're keeping track of your character's exact limits and what they can and can't do.

  • Treat comics like movies in terms of how you frame and storyboard. Your panels should be like the key frames of a film, and you should compose it with the same mindfulness of a movie director. (Choosing your angles, camera placement and arrangement of scene to give a certain atmosphere and to create a type of 'relationship' between the fighting characters.)

  • It's always more than just a fight. Try to portray the characters' relationship with each other and their plight through the way you convey their fight. For example, if the fight is charged with emotion there might be specific dialogue and facial expressions. The characters might be more or less desperate to win depending on the context.

  • Fighting style! This is really important and might be based on their background / training. Some fighteres might be more or less aggressive, might use upper or lower body moves more, might use their own unique abilities etc. (Try making some kind of mind map / list / something about what moves and styles they can use, what weapon proficiencies they have etc.

  • Bear in mind characters' stamina and energy levels. (ESPECIALLY if they have special abilities) How long does it take to get tired? How many times can they use their special ability? Ask yourself questions constantly about this stuff. How much energy they have will greatly impact how they move - their speed and the weight of their attacks.

Those are just a few things I think you need to start with. It's a good idea to make lots of notes about how your characters will fight. Hope that helps!

I don't know what drawing skill you're currently at, but "fighting scene" is at the advanced level of drawing. You have to understand the basic of Anatomy and Perspective before you can draw any good fighting scene. Don't try to skip the basic.

Just have fun with your idea and draw everything out, then study what you want to learn in other people artworks, find what you're missing. Don't be afraid that your art is "entirely stupid"! :slight_smile: just having fun with what you have right now.

My comic has some scenes if you want to know. I'm still struggling with my fight scenes btw.

I think my drawing skills are Ok :flushed:.
My main reason for even making my comic was that I wanted to improve, and since I love storytelling I thought why not give it a shot.
While drawing the episodes, you have to draw daily, and even stuff you don't usually draw, honestly I'm already seeing improvement :smile:.
Besides working on the pages I try to study the fundamentals as well, also I'm cycling through the body parts and stuff.
I think I can include pictures right? These were some quick eye studies I did.

This is one of the scenes for the next episode. I have to study fighting after the episode is out. I don't have time before that, since I don't wanna miss the update date :sweat_smile:

So you're doing good then. :grinning: Based on your studies, I don't think you're a beginner.
You already knew how to study and practice, so keep doing what you do. I know you can do it!

I'm also surprised that you understand what I said. Most people would ignore my comment or misunderstand it, due to I only insert the points that was missed in others comments. (or just because my English is bad)

I'm looking foward to your comic! :blush:

I don't think your English is bad, but maybe I just don't have the "native speakers eye" since I'm German, dunno.

Thanks for the encouragement :blush:.

Also I think you're comment is really important, especially for people my age. A lot of my friends who are into art, get discouraged when drawing with me or they ask me how I do it.
The only problem they have is that they want to draw like god but not actually learn it. It's like they want to bake a delicious cake but have never done it and then they don't even look at a recipe. Of course it'll suck.
I used to do that as well, I would either try to copy a picture without trying to understand why I have to draw it this way or I would just draw from Imagination, without having studied the thing I'm drawing before.

Keep giving that advice! It's really important and I think a lot of young artist would really benifit from such a comment :grin:

It's kind of been touched on before, but I think having it said more clearly would help: Your character's history should inform their fighting style and skill. Would they have had an interest in martial arts? Opportunities to learn it? How about purely self defense techniques? Did they go through any harsh times as a kid or young adult that would require street smarts? Do they have weapon training? Are they a trained combatant (military or otherwise)?

You want to know exactly where your characters stand on all these questions so they know how to act. Like it's not really enough to say "they go with the flow", because everyone would have a style and a preference for offense vs. defense, incapacitate vs. kill, fleeing vs. fighting, emotional vs. rational, etc. And every style of fighting has its own strengths and weaknesses.

For example, I'm a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. It's known for being a heavy kick style with strict form and (at least where I was taught) focused on self defense. I'm sure if you googled something like, "difference between martial arts styles" some sort of list will pop up. There is also a large difference between "realistic" technique and "show technique". For example: Even though it's seen a lot in media, punching/kicking/even aiming a gun at the face is generally a bad idea and more ineffective than you would think.

Punching? Your knuckles are actually kind of weak and you'll probably break or injure your hand if you don't know how to punch. Especially something harder like a face.

Kicking? Assuming you are that flexible to kick that high (most adults are not), even if you hit, you are WAY easier thrown off balance with your leg above your center of gravity.

Shooting? The head is a small target. There's recoil, wind, and the target is probably moving. Even a trained combatant is not going to land headshots often.

Generally speaking, no matter WHAT you're doing, you should probably be aiming at the torso. It can take more of a beating, but it's a much bigger target. And if you aim right, you can knock the wind out of them by hitting the solar plexus. Groin shots or joints (in close quarters) are good incapacitors, too.

There are also certain parts of the body that are harder than others and "safer" to use to attack since they're not as easily injured. Palms (the base), elbows, knees, heels, and the ball of your foot (assuming you can curl your toes up enough to not injure them) are the main examples. Elbows and heels were best in my experience. There's a reason that when we had to break wood boards during belt testing that they would not allow you to punch the board unless you were an adult and VERY CONFIDENT in your ability. I had the easiest time breaking a board with my elbow.

I kind of rambled there but I thought it was important to mention some differences from media. Extensive acrobatics are also WAY harder than one might think. And frankly, if your character has never really fought someone before, they're better off trying to escape. They also will likely not be thinking clearly and will either freeze up or freak out. The medical side of it and the seriousness of certain injuries and the recovery time is also something you should really consider.

Of course, fiction is fiction for a reason--half of the fun is making it fantastical. But that's going to depend on the tone of your story and its world. I think even if you have a complete fantasy, grounding SOMETHING in realism still helps keep believability and enriches it. A good example would be Avatar: The Last Airbender. Every group uses different martial arts and weapons and it makes a simple battle of elements way cooler.

As a closer, I also can't emphasize enough how important it is to make the conflict mean something emotionally. If the audience isn't invested in the idea of the fight or both characters, it has a real risk of feeling like filler. A lot of shonen eventually fall into this trap.

And honestly? I personally love comics that show tactics or ways to get around conflict other than violence. Makes it more interesting. So try not to get stuck in a rut of people beating on each other.

I've done Kung Fu up to green belt, it gave me some basic insights and concepts. (And the Grandmaster will tell us stories of how he had been asked to do some choreography to movies/ TV but can't bring himself to do it because what they want /is not/ martial arts to the point where it doesn't make sense to hire a professional to tell actors to do a bunch of complete nonsense lol.)

I was actually going to suggest what jpnakashima said, research is in order and honestly there's a lot you can glean from youtube. When it comes to writing fantasy fights that are down to earth, I would like to think it's just as important to research and refine your own fantasy mechanics so that they can be worked in to the foundation of fighting which is what real life gives you. Various styles have their own philosophy and I found myself not enjoying Kung Fu as much because it's very defensive. Something like Tae Kwan Do on the other hand is said to be a much more aggressive style, witnessed by the fact that you're often stepping in to attackers rather than withdrawing. Not sure if other martial arts have this concept (they probably do) but go and look up "hard style" and "soft style" attacks.

When we spar it becomes evident people really prefer one or the other to 90 / 10 ratios almost. Soft style is going with the flow, using your opponent's momentum and gravity against them, you exert little energy to deflect attacks such as sweeping a punch away from your face. Hard style as you can gather is pretty much the opposite. Ideally you are meant to train and utilize both and understand when which one is most necessary but just as with all things, people inevitably end up narrowing focus to certain styles that just click them the best. This is something you can use to add/ enhance someone's personality as well as give them flaws in combat. If someone is too narrow, they can have a fairly devastating weakness. On the other hand they can be stupidly effective against something else specific.

Also given it's fantasy and all and if you don't take classes on the material, don't be too hard on yourself for not being 100% perfect. (And make sure to look at as many kinds of martial arts as possible. They all have very unique histories, such as Wing Chun - a variant of Kung Fu- which was originally developed by a woman so she could protect herself from a forced marriage, or Capoeira which was developed to look like a dance during times of oppression so that slaves would not be suspected of learning self defense/ rebelling. These origins lead to some unique approaches in current day applications.)

You could also try asking on martial arts boards if you're stuck on a certain fight scene in your head. The hardest part though is understanding your character's specific approach to fighting like I mentioned above. What another fighter may choose to do could be different than what your character would feel most effective (and/ or lead into a good follow up attack) based on his own personal experience thus far. Something they harp on us a lot which may help you too - is flowing. You never just throw one punch out and retreat. Keep going and even throw out fakes. My favourite is throwing out a round house kick and then withdraw half way so I'm still in the right stance to throw a reverse round house on the other side. It can often throw the white tiger members (black belts who learn a specific advanced system) because you can trick them into thinking you know less than you do for the lead up. Which again, something to consider. A lot of this is very psychological in nature. Against someone who is just as or more skilled than you, you want to fake them out, defend against something that opens them up for your real strike, because they're going to block everything else. If you're not thinking ahead you're simply not going to win. Naruto and Avatar pretty much worked on this basis.

This is probably the most important part of all. I can't count the amount times I've been pulled into battle as a reader but it's never been established exactly what was at stake if the protag won or lost.

Okay. So from what I've gathered I'm going to do some heavy research on different styles, moves, techniques and kinds of martial arts.
So I can work out my characters fighting history and styles.

I think I'm also going to bug a friend of mine endlessly, I can't remember right now which one it was but he is learning martial arts.

For characters who are like me and have no idea how to fight, they will either try to talk or flee (or pee their pants :joy:).
Or they will be like the guys in my class relying purely on their height and strength advantage. Because when they beat each other up, it's not about style or technique it's just aiming for the face or throwing their body against their opponent to make them fall.

**Just one last thing I would like to know.**
Is there something a person who has learned martial arts would not do / only do reluctant, but a person who didn't learn it and behaves more like a street thug would do without hesitation.

Like something that is ingrained. I don't know, I could imagine that someone who knows what they are doing wouldn't injure someone dangerously if there's a less harmful way. Or they wouldn't just suddenly take out a knife to try stabbing someone.

The first thing that comes to mind which is pretty huge, is that a trained person is either straight up not going to, or be extremely cautious around approaching a downed opponent. There's so many things that someone on the ground can do to you, you never want to get in range. (Someone could fake being heavily injured just to draw you in for an attack.) Likewise a trained martial artist will not typically open with a direct attack because it's too easy to counter. Trained people also don't want to give away how ready they are, as well as they don't want to give away how much they know. You want to appear to be harmless or weak because surprises only work once. The roundhouse/ reverse roundhouse trick I mentioned above only works about twice before I have to switch a completely different combo because now they're going to anticipate it again.

For a real world scenario, let's say there's a gang member who's just gunna punch you. If they know that you know a lot of self defense they won't do that. They'll just come back with a gun and shoot you. Some people tend to think slowly revealing power and techniques during fights in anime is a dumb cliche but it has a very important real world purpose. (Granted sometimes in DBZ I would argue they're wasting energy by using lower forms and attacks against opponents who they already know are ridiculously strong. Being overly cautious is a bad thing, too.) And just to add on too, someone who might've been doing street fighting for their whole life rather than being formally trained can also have the upper hand on a trained fighter in some situations because they have a tendency to be a lot more loose and creative. A trained person is expecting what they've been training for (though this also depends how far they are in their own schooling.) This is why in our studio they heavily encourage sparring classes rather than just practicing techniques because the difference between people who do sparring and those who do not is night and day.

At the end of the day there's no real hard and fast rules, everything is extremely situational.