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Jwebtoons
Jul '24

Hello,

I'm here to get some advice.

I originally started my story as a novel, I had more than 50 chapters over the course of a year, but it wasn't getting much attention. I hired an artist and turned it into manga (I wanted to do that from the beginning, but getting a job to fund it took awhile).

It now has 9 manga chapters
3000+ views
Almost 200 subscribers
and almost 100 likes

I was happy to see that it was doing well, but making just a single chapter was very expensive and the price grew with time. I was already funding it when I could occasionally set money aside then it became maybe 1 or 2 chapters every couple of months...maybe.

I've been working on this series for almost 4 years now, I did a patreon, 2 kickstarters, posted an anime opening on youtube, posted on webtoons, and advertised in various places like many subreddits and the forum sections here to get support to fund the comic series.

I've asked for advice before, but it's always met with hostility. If you provide a solution and I present a challenge that I have encountered myself that prevents it from working that is not me being defensive or shooting down your idea. I am trying to actually solve the problem and not just try something that will just take me back to square 1.

I would like to actually be able to talk without anyone getting upset about it.

Like I've been told I should just "stick to novel format" or "just draw it yourself even if it's bad to save money because insert famous person here did that". My response was they're story is still the same which is a good story, but most people wouldn't touch it because of the way it is shown (non professional art style) which is a harsh, but true fact. Again they were still great stories, I even enjoyed them myself, but without the art to complement it then it doesn't have the same experience.

No one really touched my novel, but many loved my manga. I know saying something like "Hey you like my work...Pay me" is not how it works which is why I turned to Kickstarter and Patreon and tried offering things I thought people would like, but also things I could afford.

I also realized my story didn't translate well into novel format. I had to draw a picture for my artist a few times when trying to create certain scenes.

Wait until your richer was another thing I was told...The type of work I do is never changing. That's not me being pessimistic it was a fact I realized after working many different jobs. Only certain ones were a good fit for me and they don't pay much.

I was told get a bigger fanbase or put out more chapters then do the crowdfunding. I thought I had a good amount on both parts. Can I get a specific number? And that question was met with hostility.

Can we just talk without anyone being rude?

My series and anime opening is below

Manga


Anime Opening
The Legacy Of Combat Opening 1 | Why Are You My Enemy?

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    Jul '24

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    Jul '24
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RedLenai
Jul '24
1

Well... I think the main mistake here is simply having expectations, this is just me, but my main rule is to never expect making money of a product you love, receiving donations or financial support from it.
Like, I don't personally think I'll receive much donations for drawing my characters or my own stories. But at least I can feel satisfied for the activity, which is drawing itself.

One of the webcomics I work for has 700K views, and 8K subscribers. We've been around since 2017, we barely saw an income, we also got a spanish version with 100K views and 5K subscribers, no income whatsoever.

Readers want chapters faster, usually based on the complains I've received
"40 panels is way too short" and "They want weekly updates"

Then, me myself as an artist, most of my socials have less than 2K followers, only FB being the oldest since 2015 has 5K but that number I got it back THEN and still didn't move an inch after 9 years. I barely get donations, most of my income has been purely services for other people, commissions of illustrations, comics, promo art for novels or vtubers, and similar. I almost never made an income for doing something I enjoyed, be it from a fandom or whatever, nor I managed to recover money invested either in fanzines or physical merch. So, I don't rely on my passion products or projects, but the passion activity I do.

So if what I do is not enough despite being the typical Romance story with anime-ish shoujo style that even fits webcomic platforms, an artist who basically does the visuals and neon signs to attract people, I honestly don't know what you'll require to even make up for what you've spent on your comic as a writer.

You say people are being hostile, but I just think people are frustrated that your situation means it's happening or will happen to them too, or the fact that what worked for them is now obsolete. Personally I don't think these debates are hostile, first because connotation its mostly on the one reading. Second we are all strangers so we can't assume entirely their intetion is to blame you or you being the target of their hostility, that would be a bit vain, but that's the way I would see it if I were to be the one making this thread.

Most writers I know and work for, have their comic as their side hustle, and if they actually cracked the code to get an income of their own stuff, they usually are doing side stories with different prompts, alternative universes, offering more than one novel, doing fanfiction outside their paywalls in order to attract people that'll shift the focus from fandom to their writing eventually and such. That's what I can superficially see, don't know the inner twist and turns of writing.

My husband despite making a living as a writer for videogames, his own novels are his own thing, for free and from time to time receives ink or donations at his Ko-Fi. He doesn't do much self promo nor has a big following prior to his series, but its doing fairly good I think? He started it in 2021, currently has 20.1K views and 661 subs.

So... I don't know, maybe you need a pause and re-think your tactics.

KSlinger
Jul '24

@RedLenai Pretty much covered it. It takes money to make money.

That said, we could probably offer more ideas on how to generate the kind of cash you need if we knew how much it costs (ballpark) to sustain your project at its ideal pace.

It has to be said, and no disrespect, but even if money were no object and you could throw endless cash this thing, are you prepared to accept the possibility that this particular project may just never be a success? I don't mean that it's bad. But there are plenty of excellent stories here and elsewhere that just aren't viable as a business model for any number of reasons. Maybe this story just doesn't have what it takes. Maybe you'll be forever paying out of pocket to create something you love. Are you open to that?

RedLenai
Jul '24

KSlinger has an important point there...

I think the main mistake most people make is that because they feel proud of their own stories, they think everyone else will like them as much and act exactly just like how one would react. But truth is that some stories are not profitable, they are good for a portfolio, to do as a side hustle, but without much understanding of marketing or what is trending/popular both in terms of presentation, aesthetics and premise, then its hard to sell it. Some stories sell well, others won't, there is also the luck factor.

SleepingPoppy
Jul '24

This Sort of thing comes down to realistic expectations. There is no secret way to guarantee success of these kinds of projects. For most of us it’s a labor of love, and financial success is considered an unlikely but hopeful bonus.

The point where patreon becomes useful is likely when you’re closer to 1k followers. Only a small fraction of your subs will be willing to support monetarily, so you need a pretty big following before it converts to dollar signs. That said, things like Ink Giving are a great time to offer rewards for tipping with ink on tapas and get a boost without needing as big a following. It’s still a very small amount of money, but every drop counts!

It’s important to be aware that it’s very possible you will never break even on your project, and decide if it’s worth while for you to continue even so. If it is, you keep grinding. Or you try a different story/different art. All you can do is keep trying things.

Thumber
Jul '24

If you have fun and passion on your work, money will come naturaly, do not seek money, seek your passion :slight_smile:

Jwebtoons
Jul '24

I'm not doing this to get rich. This is a passion project, but it is a pricey passion project. I saw so many creators getting patreons, kickstarters, etc. Even advised by others when you reach a good amount of subs/views then I would be able to get support to fund the project.

It's difficult to keep it going with my own wallet. I don't make a lot.

Jwebtoons
Jul '24

I get what everyone is saying, and I want to say thanks for not being rude about it. There is a difference between saying "This is the harsh truth, it just doesn't work like that" vs "You're stupid for thinking that. I've never someone as dumb you. You don't belong here...insert random insults and mocking comments here". Yes I've been told similar things.

For those wondering, one chapter used to cost less for me, but my artist increased the costs. One chapter as of my last few chapters is about $450 usd. Whether or not that is a lot or a little to you is subjective.

I don't make a lot and probably never will. I had hoped that I would be able to get support to fund my project when I reached a certain point.

I thought I wasn't able to get any support because my attempts were lacking something. Needs a betters pitch, nicer perks, more ads, something was missing that I couldn't figure out.

For those that say it has to be a big following, can I get a number because I've read what some of you said for your numbers (which is a massive amount), If it's still not really possible with that amount then I guess it really is down to luck.

All one can really do is what one can do alone. Until the day comes someone decides to join if it ever does.

RedLenai
Jul '24
Jwebtoons

We're not talking about getting rich, I believe no one has accused you of that, but that even to repay what you've invested, you cannot rely on your passion, your passion is yours, but to many it won't be worth investing or throwing a few coins

You said it yourself

That's why many say that if you cannot get a tiny bit of what you're investing in, or that the inevitable truth that it'll weight in one's wallet, to keep it cheap or just have it as a novel, regardless of your insistence in your vision or stubborness, because at least your time will be invested and not your wallet dealing constant damage at the point that these situations happen...

And worst if you find out that in the end, some projects are just not profitable, success may be a big word depending on your goal but you can't ignore that if you're putting money on the table, to expect part of said amount or a just a bit more to come back so you can keep investing in said project.
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If the price is $450 more or less for 35 pages, give or take. Then that means each page is $12.
Maybe it would be best to commision a smaller amount so its not like you're giving $450 in one go. Besides it''ll allow you to be able to make updates more frequently even if its shorter. While you're still be investing $450 per chapter, it'll allow you to don't feel that gone money too quickly besides allowing readers to be a bit more invested or provide a bit more of activity, considering the last update was in April.

I would suggest to do 1 page a week, or every two weeks. That way if you're commissioning a bundle, you can at least schedule it and get viewers active, activity means engagement, engagement feeds the algorithm and maybe new people could come up.

Imagine it as if taking one bite bigger than what your jaw can handle, then compare it to taking smaller bites. Which one allows you to chew properly or more comfortably? Or like in makeup, when you instead of squeezing the base cream, you only use tiny drop for a smoother look, less is more, that's what I'm trying to say.

Personally, I don't think the story is doing that well since... well, the art is not attractive, at least to me and the shape of the speech bubbles and font choice are not very appealing nor comfortable either. Of course that is just me, but I would suggest working with Comic Marker Deluxe Font or Anime Ace.
$12 seems to be a bit excessive for its quality and composition, I think I saw some Philipino or Latam artists charging similar but with more polished artwork in Facebook, so you may consider giving it a try, at least to redraw a single page as a test, then see what you'll want to do. Of course, I'm not trying to offend you nor your artist. But this work quality is usually what I would see in a MangaPlus amino group, where the mayority are likely 13 or 15. I'm just saying it as maybe, a way to reflect what some may think while seeing your cover or pages first time, then why they would go back to Tapas For You section

I honestly don't know what you'll require to even make up for what you've spent on your comic as a writer. We cannot give you exact numbers, there isn't. There is no milestone or unlockable action after reaching certain numbers, there i people that not even with 10K followers in their socials manage to make an income. Someone said that Patreon becomes useful at 1K, personally I would say 20K. Unless you are offering way too much but that too ends up being unprofitable and exhausting.
What works for some doesn't work for others, so don't have much expectations by comparing yourself to others.

Caro
Jul '24

There isn’t a magic number you reach where people suddenly want to monetarily support you. I’ve found that its a lot more dependent on the work itself. I had 70k followers on Instagram alone and couldn’t break past earning $60-80 a month until I completely switched which project it focused on. There are people with over 100k followers who can’t get good traction with Patreon. I probably ran through at least 12 different projects before any money came in and its rare for someone’s first few comics to be profitable. Not every project earns that kind of support.

Jwebtoons
Jul '24
RedLenai

I was addressing @Thumber saying don't seek money when I was making the comment about trying get rich.

Actually since I use Fiverr to hire an artist I pay $12 to the artist, but Fiverr raises the price to a total of $16.12 due to taxes and stuff.

I pay per page and just build them up before releasing them to the public. I don't pay all at once.

Is the art really that bad? It looks fine to me. Can I get some kind of comparison because personally I don't see an issue with it. If I could get better quality for the same price or pay less that would be nice.

I'll try the fewer pages route. Thanks.

Jwebtoons
Jul '24
Caro

I haven't made even 1 cent. But after seeing those numbers and your explanation, it kind of makes sense.

RedLenai
Jul '24
Jwebtoons

Here doesn't say anything about getting rich, getting money can be any quantity, even just what has been invested. But there is true, one should... have close to the ground expectations or none at all with their passion projects.

Then, know that the artist actually doesn't get $12, but way less due to taxes and other fees or transactions just as much as you have to pay more. Personally, I wouldn't use Fiverr at all, neither as a client nor an artist, due to the many fees, and overall system of the platform.

The art does look bad to me, again, me, personal value as an artist myself. To me it doesn't look very different to what I would expect from a minor in a Latam group posting The revolutionary manga that'll save Latinoamerica in Jump Plus. I know, very specific, but its what I've seen most of the time.

Like... this is the first episode. Anatomy is wrong, coloring is very amateurish and saturated, there are white lines, choppy edges, very small resolution and pixelated, almost as if drawn in a canvas smaller than 800pixels

Latest chapter ain't that far away, just increased a bit the resolution of the canvas. Text looks like if it was added with Microsoft Pain XP

I personally wouldn't read anything with said quality, since the first thing that attracts a comic reader will likely be the art, unless I was a minor who still hasn't developed an artistic eye nor has consumed a considerable amount of comics to know what is good arstyle and what is something that still needs polishing..

Then you are releasing every now and then instead of keeping a steady schedule and flow of interest, if I had to wait several months for a comic, I would likely have to re-read it to reconnect with the story, if the art is not that good then it'll be a task that'll likely make me drop it.

That's something you'll have to search on your own, based on your own preferences and the fact that the artist is interested in doing the genre of your story, as many artists delete their posts once they get a long term commission for comics in order to not receive further offers, you can always make an anonymous post in a group Looking for Artists then see their offers and samples. As well, I wouldn't recommend anyone that I don't know nor know how they work.

But I can make an exception, just that is your responsability to talk to the people or understand if they have limited english, or whatever. Some may be a bit higher than $12, but hey, you can tell the difference even from a screenshot and miniature.

This was just me scrolling for a bit on Facebook





The fact you don't see an issue doesn't mean others won't... some people may have higher standards... or well, I get spending money on something then realizing there were better options takes time, but like, look at the art of these people then the one of your comic and start comparing, quality, lines, anatomy, shading, etc.

Jwebtoons
Jul '24

I don't really use social media, so trying to find your recommendations is proving to be a bit of a challenge. I'll keep looking, but if I can't find them I'll look for an artist I can commission from one of the forums on Facebook.

It might be a bit easier here on webnovel, but I don't have too many great experiences working with artists here.

RedLenai
Jul '24

Well.... you cannot expect much from a novel or comic if you don't promote where most people are... at Social Media.
Be it a group, a forum, a server, a channel, short videos, a blog, snaps, etc.

I believe you need to move out of your comfort zone if you want your stuff to reach more people or at least make connections, hire artists or similar. Most artists available do not spend time on the forum, considering most #collaborations posts are Unpaid and they themselves cannot self-promote services or forms of payment, therefore there is an impediment... you'll likely have to more around more.

Jwebtoons
Jul '24

I think there is a misunderstanding. I did use social media to promote. I just don't use it in general, so I don't know how to do certain things. Like locating specific people. I went to the appropriate groups/forums to promote, but I don't know how to find specific people and do some other things.

Especially since it's been awhile since I last used some of them.

RedLenai
Jul '24

Well buddy, there is internet, there are tutorials, videos, blogs with samples and screenshots, even guides made by the same social platforms, you ain't gonna learn or get better at it if you don't try nor put a bit more of effort. But welp, do what you prefer.

Jwebtoons
Jul '24

I was just asking how to find the people from the list you provided. Like Fernando Paz.

There are thousands of Fernando Paz on Facebook. I've been searching for about an hour and still have not found this person.

RedLenai
Jul '24

You are too vague at times, a crystal ball didn't come with the art kit nor I'm familiar enough with you to understand perfectly what it is that you want by the way how you phrase things, but really....

I gave you examples as you asked, I believe I have been more than generous to give you examples that there is in fact people who can work for cheaper or at least have better art, already gave you advice about scheduling, understanding there is no magic number, and that.

I cannot serve everything in a golden plate for you, leave it perfectly comfortable, accessible, minimum effort on your part for stuff that you need, not me. Learn how to enter commission groups, or spanish ones, some groups may be private or closed, therefore only members can see what goes on inside them.

Have a bit of initiative or to keep trying things instead of giving up or just to complain its too difficult, is not what you do often, etc. You asked for examples to prove my point, there you have it. Understand too that some don't want to be compromised one way or another if your exchange goes sour with one of those artists, I don't want to be blamed for whatever happens through your DMs with them, both parts are strangers to me, so it figures why I'm not the one acting like an intermediary.

Jwebtoons
Jul '24

When I asked for a comparison I meant the art. Good vs bad. I said this right after I asked if mine really was that bad. I thought it was self exclamatory. Could even be an example off the internet.

You provided some recommendations. Thank you, but I have no means of getting to them. A picture doesn't really help much. Most people leave a link.

I also said this.

Nowhere there does it say "Teach me how to use facebook". It says I'm having trouble finding your recommendation. Not sure how you got that interpretation. I was just asking for a link.

The internet isn't gonna really tell me how to find a specific person. How to find people in general yes, but not a specific person who has the same name as thousands.

I think you just skimmed what I said too quickly and jumped to a conclusion.

I was always told people should be okay with asking for help. I'm taking the initiative by asking for help to move forward. So again, like I said. I was just asking for a link to the recommendations. I thought it wasn't that big of an issue.

I'm not blaming you for anything. I was just asking for an easier method of finding them.

If it's too much trouble I'll just sort this out on my own . Thank you for your time.