Preferred Gender Pronouns

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So I'm a TA and I go to a liberal college. One of the students in my class recently told me via email that she is now going by they or them. I am all for equality and all that. I have friends that are gay and transgendered but I have to admit, I hate using "they" or "them" for a singular noun. It is confusing as hell. It is also weird using the pronouns like "ze" and etc because it sounds so San Franciscian hipster douchey. I also don't know why we can't use the gender neutral, singular, pronoun "it". I don't see why people find that offensive personally. some people get offended when you even call one of their pets an "it", which is crazy to me.

I find it funny because if say I said I wanted to get plastic surgery to get a new nose people would tell me I should just be happy with who I am but when it comes to gender it's like call yourself whatever you'd like.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for equal rights and I'm not trying to start some sort of hate speech. I think people should be and be with whoever they want, straight, gay or whatever. But at some point by going out of the way to call people whatever they want can get annoying. And If I accidentally get the pronoun wrong and they just blow up on me (which has happened before) seems kind of messed up. It's like ordering pizza and somebody gets mad at you for not getting a veggie pizza for the one vegetarian that shows up to the party (actually it's bullshit. now at events it's like there is only vegetarian pizzas and no meat pizzas so we can be much more "inclusive". It messes with my rights as a carnivore.)

Anyways I'm curious what people think about this. Let's try to keep it civil.

[rainbowolfe]

The thing about "it" is that it's used to refer to objects. It also gives the feeling that you don't care about whatever you're talking about. The pronoun "it" can actually be very dehumanizing, thought I do know some people who like to use it as their preferred pronoun. .-. While it's true people shouldn't get all pissy if you accidentally mess up their pronoun, you should respect what they choose to use.

And the thing about getting a nose job vs realizing your gender, is that using different pronouns isn't technically a change?? It's being who you actually are.

[heterodont]

Admittedly, it doesn't help when someone 'blows up' on someone else because of mistaken pronouns. Particularly when they are not made obvious - most of the time it is a simple mistake and the person does not mean to misgenders the other person.

Transgendered isn't the correct term. It's simply Transgender or trans. The comparison of nose surgery and gender is a stretch, there are still those people who are told that they should be happy with how their body is but dysphoria is a thing. While there may be dysphoria with having a nose, it's not something that's particularly important to your identity

Singular use of they is correct, even if it sounds wrong. Iirc it was originally used by Shakespeare in his writing. Not to mention, for example, when you're asking if something belongs to another person, do you say "is it his/hers?" Or "is it theirs?" It becomes a bit burdensome to constantly say his/hers when you can simply use a neutral pronoun (i.e they/their/theirs) that doesn't take as much time to say.

People don't like the usage of 'it' because it has a nonhuman connotation. However, there are some people who do like it but again, a majority don't because it's often and actively used as an insult towards trans people.

[noxfox]

I am all for equality and all that. I have friends that are gay and transgendered but

But what...? It does sound like your own comfort is much more important than their well being. By refusing to address them as they are comfortable with, you refuse to acknowledge them as persons. Before judging them as being whimsy San Fransisco hipster douchebags (I hope nobody here's from San Fransisco --oh sorry, Tapastic!) maybe you should examine more in depth what this is all about.

Language is driven by our culture, and as culture evolves, so does language. If you feel personally offended at the idea of using such words, maybe it reflects that you do not wish to associate with the people who use those words, because you are different from them, because you could be identified as someone who agrees with this idea of respecting transgender, queer and intersex people in the way they wish to be respected.

Your refusal is your own choice and reflects that the issue is on your side. So the real question isn't "what you guys think about this?" but "what is my problem with this?". You seek for approval here, it does seem like you are sensitive for peer pressure... Are you waiting for everybody to approve of those pronouns before you can dare to use them?

Transgendered isn't the correct term. It's simply Transgender or trans. The comparison of nose surgery and gender is a stretch, there are still those people who are told that they should be happy with how their body is but dysphoria is a thing. While there may be dysphoria with having a nose, it's not something that's particularly important to your identity

Absolutely! I was about to say, but you tackled it first!

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Also what if I say that getting work done on my face gets me closer to what I feel I am actually supposed to be? I think awhile back there was a woman who got surgery to look more like a cat. Most people would call that crazy instead of accepting her for what she wants to be.

[MichelleAntisocial]

So... are you saying we should be supportive of all modifications that folks want to do to their bodies or none of them?

[joannekwan]

a woman who got surgery to look more like a cat.

Well at least transitioning from male to female or vice versa is staying in the spectrum of being human. > <

And in my opinion, "it" is for objects (but if someone wants to go by that, ok). Ever heard of a book called "A Child Called It"? That book was all the rage in the latter 90's. Basically the story is about a boy who was severely abused by his mother. Anyway, that would explain my personal aversion to calling someone "it".

But yeah, I was about to bring up the Shakespeare point with "they/them" but @heterodont covered that nicely.
I agree though that people shouldn't flip out over an honest mistake, it's like mispronouncing a name, just politely correct them or sincerely apologize (depending on which side you are) and get on with your day.

I think if you choose to call someone by their preferred pronoun, it is a way of showing them respect and perhaps for them, it's a form of validation. Especially if they've faced personal opposition and rejection.

[heterodont]

Getting facial surgery so it can get you closer to what you feel like you should actually be isn't correct. It's what you feel like what you should VISABLY look like. Does the lady get the surgery because she thinks she's a cat in the wrong body, or because she likes cats?

People utilize different pronouns because that's what they FEEL. it's to bridge the disconnect that arises with ones biological sex and gender identity. It's difficult to explain if you don't know how it feels. Particularly with ttans people with dysphoria, they endure hormone treatments and go through the trouble of raising money for surgery and what not so they can get their body to match what they feel they actually ARE.

in comparison to everything else, getting people to use their preferred pronoun is the cheapest thing they can do to feel comfortable with themselves.

[gateofselidor]

Why all this talk of people getting surgery? That has nothing to do with people requesting different pronouns, and makes it sound more like your issue is with people medically transitioning.

Singular they has a long history of being used in English, and personally it didn't take me long to get used to it (and I'm a professional proofreader, so I'm certainly picky about grammar and natural English). I'm not a big fan of people making up new pronouns, because it's confusing even for native speakers, but if any catch on and get absorbed into the wider language then I'm okay with that.

[deedledee]

I think I'll always find "they" or "them" for a person awkward, no matter how much you talk to me about descriptive v. prescriptive language; even when it's grammatically correct. And I agree; "ze" sounds so hipster.

It bothers me when people bend over backwards to cater to the easily-offended. And usually it's one of two kinds of "offended" - the one looking out for children, or the ones who have a thin skin. Maybe it's because there hasn't been a huge social justice movement in the west so the pent-up energy is affecting some? I'd much rather turn the energy towards helping the financially-screwed or other like persons, if that's the case. I must ponder the matter some more.

The kind of people who get on soapboxes regarding the matter appear to enjoy the spotlight (no matter how momentary) of victimization, or standing up for the potentially-marginalized. They also claim to be "open-minded," but really they're shutting the door the open another one, typically in a very politically one-sided fashion. Take equity movements as an example if you will. Then you have people on one side saying one side is a bigot, and you have people on another side claiming that side is crazy, and you have people on yet another side who just want this thing to blow over... It's a bunch of stuff-throwing.

It's somewhat depressing that you felt the need to put in a disclaimer about being for equal rights despite being civil. Does nobody give the benefit of the doubt anymore?

Will check back later.

[Delete]

I'm not sure. There was this sci fi novella called, Mr. Boy by James Patrick Kelly. In the story medical science has made it so everybody could look however they wanted. The main character's best friend got surgery to make him look like a dinosaur. The point of the book was sometimes things get taken too far with visual looks and identity.

And also for the record I appreciate everybody else opinions. I have my opinions on things but it's from my own experiences which are unique like everybody else. And I am of course going to call the student in class a they, it doesn't make a difference to me, just that I may flub it a couple times getting used to it. I'm also really interested on what is identity. What is this dynamic between the idealized version of yourself compared to the reality.

One thing the gets me though in our more politically correct world is that I think people are scared about question why about certain things. Once people are too afraid to voice opinions because they are worried about being politically correct I think we'd lose something as a society.

on a side note TBH I think the reason Trump is doing so well right now is backlash from political correctness. He says whatever the hell he wants despite it being bat shit crazy and a lot of crazy conservatives are super into it because in some ways it comes off as refreshing.

[Elwetritsche]

English is not my native language but I'd say I'm not bad at it. I'm used to read English content on the web. I have to admit I read 'they'/'them' refer to a single person in a story here on Tapastic the first time and I got hella confused. I thought I missed something plot wise and re-read whole passages. The comments below cleared it up for me. In some languages it is normal to refer to a single person as plural when talking politely or to a stranger.

For example, in German, you write the first letter as a capital so you KNOW it's not multiple people (instead of 'du'/'dir' ('you') you write 'Sie'/'Ihnen' ('You') in mid-sentence). These are rules everyone learns in elementary school. On the other hand, German has explicit endings for nouns that can refer to a male or female, like with jobs or titles. (male pronouns are also more commonly used when talking about multiple people). The male form is the basic form and can theoretically refer to both genders, but today, a lot of people insist you use both forms to include women more; to make them more visible, which is a good idea of course. You usually have to add something to the end to make it female. This alone makes a lot of people go mad. ^^ Using this all the time does make words and sentences longer and more complicated. I understand people beeing annoyed by that; maybe we'll find an easier way.

But if it's an individual thing a person has to clarify every time, it can be frustrating for both sides I guess. I have a huge problem remembering peoples names. I know I would screw their preferred gender up over and over again. You would have to be veeery patient if you insist on beeing referred to a certain way.

Despite beeing a woman, people confuse me with a young man all the time because I don't look very female and I don't even want to. I never blame them. They're mostly sorry when they realise their 'mistake'. I don't want them to feel bad about that. Sometimes, I am even fine when beeing referred to as male, depending on the situation.

So that's my experience. I don't really have a solution for this question ...

[shazzbaa]

They/them is awkward for me as a former grammar freak (I actually DID conscientiously construct sentences in the "everyone has his notebook" style, so it's a habit that's been hard to break) but that's why I'm really glad to see more comics and stories and stuff with non-binary characters, so I can get used to it and it won't be as hard to get right!

For me, it's not about whether I, like, agree with the concept; I will try to call you what you wanna be called! If you want me to use xe/xir, I'll probably have a hard time, but I'll do my best! If you want to change your name, I'll try my hardest to remember! It kinda goes with the whole Do Unto Others thing, to me.

When I changed my name, it was startling how much it mattered to me, and I didn't even have gender identity tied up in it. I had some friends who immediately adopted the new name, but others said, "we've always known you by your original name, I don't think I can ever get the hang of this new one." I told them it was fine, and they could call me whatever they preferred -- but I realised later that this wasn't true at all. I was surprised; it hurt my feelings when people refused to use the name that I felt happy with, when they could not be bothered to change a habit because it would be inconvenient to make me feel loved and welcome. I didn't expect to feel that way! And I agree, it's super weird that it mattered that much. It's weird how much my sense of self was tied up in it. But it mattered. So I told them later, "this mattered a lot more than I realised, if you could try to call me this new name, it would mean the world to me."

It's very easy to look at someone else and say, "this shouldn't matter that much to you." But man, sometimes it matters, and you can't even really explain WHY it matters. When you get it right, or try your hardest to get it right, it really is going to mean the world to some people in a way that's hard to articulate. And what do I really gain by insisting that I shouldn't have to do this? So, yeah, it is a hard habit to make. But to me, it's worth it to make someone else feel cared about, instead of dismissed. ;u;

[Kayke]

Typically, if I don't know anything about a person's gender, I'm going to call them they/them by default anyway. If someone mentions something like "A friend of mine let me borrow a video game" I would say "what game did they give you?"

That's proper English and does not imply I'm talking about multiple people at all, just one person who's name I don't know.

As for people getting upset when they're misgendered via use of an incorrect pronoun, that's completely understandable. I know plenty of cis people who would be upset if they were called the wrong gendered pronoun as well, especially if it was repeatedly after they specifically asked someone to stop.

I'm cis, so I'm not an authority on this subject at all, but one of my former roommates is trans and I lived with him for three years and had to watch him go through a lot of bull on a near daily basis just for expressing the gender he identifies as. It is a struggle for some people to pass as their gender. It's can really beat people up emotionally to have strangers call them a pronoun they don't identify as on a daily basis. It can make even simple things like going to the grocery store into something you dread doing. So if someone feels comfortable enough with you to openly ask you to call them a different pronoun than the one you've been using for them, it would be the kind and respectful thing to do to listen. And maybe it's hard to remember, but you should make an effort. I've known trans people who will avoid acquaintances/friends who get their pronouns wrong because it gives them a sense of dysphoria.

Also, if there is a vegetarian at the party, then get pizza without meat. You, as a person who eats meat, can also eat pizza without meat. A person who is a vegetarian cannot eat pizza with meat on it. It's not an equal comparison. It's them not getting to eat anything vs you still getting pizza, just no pepperoni. That's not an infringement on your rights, that's a minor... I wouldn't even call it an inconvenience, you're still getting pizza. Being considerate and inclusive is not an infringement on your rights just because it's annoying to you for some reason.

[Delete]

Also, if there is a vegetarian at the party, then get pizza without meat. You, as a person who eats meat, can also eat pizza without meat. A person who is a vegetarian cannot eat pizza with meat on it. It's not an equal comparison. It's them not getting to eat anything vs you still getting pizza, just no pepperoni. That's not an infringement on your rights, that's a minor... I wouldn't even call it an inconvenience, you're still getting pizza. Being considerate and inclusive is not an infringement on your rights just because it's annoying to you for some reason.

Oh, come on! vegetarians can eat meat. They just choose not to and that's their choice. If I buy a pizza with my own money, it's going to be have meat on it. If they want some they can have some otherwise they can get their own food with their own money or they can pick off the pepperoni and give it to me so I can make a double decker pepperoni pizza slice. If I didn't buy the food that's different I'd eat a veggie slice, whatever.

Vegetarians can be fine awesome people but the moment their needs mess with my good times thats when I'm cool with it.

[Zanreo]

Using people's pronouns for them is to me just basic respect. Singular "they" is still often used for situations where you don't know someones gender, or giving an example about some hypothetical person whose gender is irrelevant. I don't have any "problem" with it, grammatically.
As for other pronouns like "xe", "ze" ect: well, if that's what they prefer to be called, that's what I'l call them and do my best to remember.

If I don't know someone's gender/pronouns or is talking about some hypothetical person I'll say "they" instead of he/she. Sounds less clunky and could also include nonbinary people.

[Maffi]

Tumblr has done to many bad things to this world

[noxfox]

There was this sci fi novella called, Mr. Boy by James Patrick Kelly.

Are you taking the case of sci fi novel as scientific evidence or actual ground to criticize a situation that is different from the one in the book? If you want to read a story in which a character is actually capable of shifting into most any shapes he want, and in which dysphoria is taken in account, you can read Singmire Haze > u > ...Not that it is an actual scientific work, of course.

But if it's an individual thing a person has to clarify every time, it can be frustrating for both sides I guess. I have a huge problem remembering peoples names. I know I would screw their preferred gender up over and over again. You would have to be veeery patient if you insist on beeing referred to a certain way.

It's quite usual for trans persons to be aggressive about pronouns, especially at the beginning of their transition, because they are in great distress, and their suffering is too much to handle to also handle not getting upset when misgendered. The suffering is real, but eventually it'll get better as they get acknowledged in their gender. I think it's up to the two sides to make efforts if they actually wish to communicate together.

Transpersons can totally acknowledge that it might be tedious to use the correct pronouns, especially when people have to change an habit they had for many years. It's been 9 years since I started transition and now I don't take offense in being misgendered when I know people don't know I'm trans or don't mean to deny my gender (it even amuses me sometimes). It's when someone will refuse to make an effort or try to hurt me by misgendering me on purpose that I'll take rightful offense.

On the other side, it's everybody's part to also understand that if a transperson reacts harshly to being misgender, it's because they're being really hurt. Correcting yourself, saying "I'm sorry" or "I need more time to get used to it but I promise I'm trying" are as many ways to appease. If you just get offended by the other's reaction it could be that you feel like your ego is more important than the other's pain? Always something to question.

Vegetarians can be fine awesome people but the moment their needs mess with my good times thats when I'm cool with it.

So, as I expected, it's all about you not wanting to get out of your comfort zone because it's more important than the others' well being. As a matter of fact there are also people who aren't vegetarian by choice, they really have terrible issue digesting meat and it's not their fault, just how they are. If you want to compare with food, being transgender is more like having diabetes or being allergic to nuts: it's not a choice, it's just something you need to deal with.

And I agree, it's super weird that it mattered that much. It's weird how much my sense of self was tied up in it. But it mattered.

It's not weird at all, dear! It was simply WHO you were. By refusing to acknowledge this new name, it really was refusing to acknowledge the real person you were, because it was what this name meant to you: "I've been given a role that was never meant for me, but THIS is me, this is my role, this is who I am and I want to share with you my true self, not a lie, not a pretense, not an expectation."

[Zanreo]

"They" as a pronoun and "new" pronouns existed long before tumblr, it's not some "weird new tumblr thing"

[gateofselidor]

Unless you ordered the world's largest pizza, surely you're going to need more than one to feed multiple people? Every time I've eaten pizza with a group, we order a mixture of meat and veggie pizzas, and everyone is happy.