Preferred Gender Pronouns

[papachan]

Okay. So I am going to be honest and say I am too lazy to read 37 (ish) comments. Shame on me, shame on me. I study English language and what makes words words and how words do word things. (TESOL) Basically, "it" does like some people here describe an object, and we subconsciously know that even if we don't realize it because native speaker intuition. So when you say, "That is Its cookie" whoever "It" is will be like "Hey, I'm not a f*king tree." (Bad example)
I personally do not like the term "they or them" because it implies that there are multiple people. If they have multiple personalities, or even if they are gender fluid and they are Dave and Darla in one body, then go on and call them well...them. However, I hate using "they" and "them" pronouns for people who are transgender or non-binary or whoever else they may be. I have a friend who is non-binary, who would prefer if I called "Name" them or they. However, I really do not like it. So what I do in those situations is I ask for a name and call them by that name in place of the pronouns.
So for example, let's use my real name. Storm. It's neutral, so it could be either a boy's or a girl's name. What I would say is "That is Storm's book." "Stormself" "I love Storm, Storm is so funny."

(And before anyone tried to claw my eyes out, I am sorry in advance if this burns your soul or boils your blood. I do not care about my gender, so I let people use whatever pronoun they want. So, no, I cannot sympathize, but I am a lesbian, so I am sort of apart of the community.)

[carodoodles]

I am a trans masculine genderqueer person and go by either 'they' or 'he'. A lot of people have already said what I wanted to say so I'll be brief here.

Watch this video made by a linguist about 'they' pronoun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ehrFk-gLk

Yes it did sound weird to me at first (way back then before when I thought I was a cisgender girl) but you'll get used to it. Respecting other people's pronouns- 'she' 'he' 'they' 'xe' 'ze' or so goes a LONG WAY.

How would you feel if I call you by 'she'? How would you feel if I say "ugh calling 'he' is confusing as hell and weird. it's annoying to go out the way to call Neil 'he'?

That said, every genderqueer person is different (obviously), few, yes, will blow up from reaction of gender dysphoria popping up when being misgendered. But from my experience, if a person is being civil about it and genuinely apologized, we'll be fine. If the person isn't being civil or kept misgendering me or didn't genuinely apologize, we'll blow up. So idk how you reacted but maybe consider reacting with more respect since you said people have had blown up at you.

(I want to add- thank you to everyone who stood up for genderqueer people and our rights to be called by proper pronouns. You guys rock and it's great to have you guys part of this community <3)

[AnnaLandin]

But at some point by going out of the way to call people whatever they want can get annoying.

That's the thing - it's not up to you, or me. It's a matter of respecting what a person wants to be referred to as. It's the same as respecting a person enough to pronounce their name properly, even if it's difficult/unfamiliar to you, instead of giving them a nickname to make it easier on yourself.

I find it funny because if say I said I wanted to get plastic surgery to get a new nose people would tell me I should just be happy with who I am but when it comes to gender it's like call yourself whatever you'd like.

This is not really the best of comparisons. Gender identity IS what you are, whether your outward physical attributes match that identity or not. It's possible to feel and identity as male, for example, even when you have a body that is perceived as female.

Getting surgery to fix something you aren't happy with is perfectly okay in my book - but there is no surgery that will "fix" your gender identity. It can help align your body closer to what your gender identity happens to be, but a woman is just as much a woman even if she doesn't have ovaries, or whichever female bodypart you happen to believe is integral.

I also don't know why we can't use the gender neutral, singular, pronoun "it". I don't see why people find that offensive personally.

They get offended because "it" is a word that has traditionally been used to a.) refer to non-human objects or animals, and b.) has traditionally been part of the dehumanising of people of colour, people of different sexual orientations, and various other oppressed groups. The word "it" has a history in this context, and it's not really a great one.

It's the same reason why calling a black male "boy" is offensive. The term itself isn't offensive - it's all the history and weight that comes attached to it.

Also, if I went through life simply making decisions based on what was offensive to me, I'd be offending other people all the time. I cannot, and will not, be the norm against which I judge other people. I don't have their background, I don't have their identity issues, I don't have their lived experience of racism/sexism/gender discrimination/whatever discriminatory and troublesome thing has led them to present themselves in this particular way. And because I don't, I don't get to pick a gender pronoun or nickname for them that best suits me.

I mean, if someone came along and insisted on refering to you as something other than what you are, wouldn't you be bothered?

It's like ordering pizza and somebody gets mad at you for not getting a veggie pizza for the one vegetarian that shows up to the party

Again, this is not really the best comparison, IMHO. Firstly, because vegetarianism is a dietary choice and gender identity is very complex and psychologically anchored matter of selfhood and being allowed to define yourself as a person. Secondly, I'd buy that veggie pizza for that one vegetarian, because if they're going to show up at my party, I'd want them to feel included and have a good time while they're there, and providing them with food they are able/willing to eat seems like the least I could do.

[hades]

As someone that was called 'it' by peers through a chunk of my childhood it is hurtful and disrespectful to assume it has no negative connotations compared to 'they' and other pronouns.

As well, do you know the story of this person? Why they are fully changing pronouns? The time building up the bravery to contact those around them and change them? Why they want this to begin with? Everyone has their reasons, even if they seem insignificant to me or you.

When I first wanted to change my pronouns just in the online world I was met with retaliation and asked why it even mattered. This was just changing my pronouns from feminine to masculine or neutral. It got so overwhelming and clearly not cared for that I gave up. It hurt me and I realized that respect didn't come before someone else's mild discomfort. I've moved on since then but I'm sad that it really does seem to be a huge problem just to respect someone's very personal decision. 'Tumblr' pronouns aside the idea of changing your pronouns can come with a lot of thought and borderline fear behind it.

Just be respectful, that's all this person is asking for.

[Vikiro_Hop]

definitely talking about vegan, yah probably spent a bit too much time on what started off as a silly analogy.

Also to clarify my earlier post. I think someone going out of there way to be called they or them is awkward after having there gender preference clarified, not that it is used for someone whose gender you are unsure of. That being said if someone looks one way I'll go off that naturally. If I'm corrected, I'll apologize and move on.

[AnnaLandin]

they or them is awkward after having there gender preference clarified

Except some people define themselves as non-binary - that is, neither male nor female. For those people, they/them is the preferred pronoun. That seems to be the case with the OPs example. Someone he has regular contact with has expressed a wish to be referred to as they/them.

[Delete]

Sure a word can have history behind it but they can change over time. I mean the word "[redacted]" has become a term of endearment in certain groups. There was an episode of south park where they were trying to change the meaning of "[redacted]" to harley davidson riders. "It" is such a useful and simple word and it is a shame that it does have all this bad history behind it. But anyways I'm just going to use "they" because I still think "xe" and "zir" sound dumb.

And also congrats to everyone that buys the extra veggie pizza. You guys are the real heroes.

I'd find it funny though if I did buy a veggie pizza for the next party and then some new person comes up and starts bitching about how they can't eat cheese and why is there no veggie option without cheese.

[thorbjornlyk]

And also congrats to everyone that buys the extra veggie pizza. You guys are the real heroes.

So I just read the thread to get more knowledge on the subject but this veggie pizza keeps popping up and it frustrates me.

If you have not eaten meat for years you cannot digest it and it will make you sick to eat it (Or that is how it works for a lot of people at least) Eating meat is not really an option even if that is the only thing there is.

Informing that you have other dietary needs before arriving at a party is always polite though. And you cannot be expected to take care of people if they have not informed you about such a thing. If you are unable to take care of feeding them inform them in advance.

[Vikiro_Hop]

yeah I understand that, and I realize that peoples gender identities are necessarily set in stone. I'm mostly pointing out that its a bit more awkward than say to just switch from he to she. I find that a little odd, but without knowing whats going on inside that persons head I can't really judge. Like I said before I would just deal with it and comply with their wishes.

[riverfur]

How are you going out of your way to remember someone's preferred pronouns? It only takes a tiny bit of energy to remember to do it, and isn't causing you any trouble or harm.

[scythe]

I think there's something missing from this conversation, here and elsewhere, which is the concept that more often than not, offence is taken, not given.

It's usually very clear when someone is intending to give offence, so clear in fact, it almost always goes without saying.

But a lot of the time, especially these days, we find ourselves increasingly being put in positions where people not intending to give offence are being told they are being offensive, simply because one group or even individual has decided that some term or action offends them. This is a perilous mindset, which once taken root, more often than not leads to dangerous levels of censorship, even if that censorship is self-imposed.

If we cannot challenge, joke about or even discuss certain concepts, simply because one group deems them offensive, then we leave ourselves defenceless against terrible ideas when they rear their ugly heads, because all the person espousing those ideas has to do is claim to be a member of an oppressed class, and wammo, their ideas become a protected taboo.

Now I'm not saying that this relates specifically to this discussion, but rather I'd just like to warn against a general, creeping mentality I'm seeing pop up far too often these days, which says "if I am personally offended by what you're saying, then what you're saying is offensive." The implication being, you should then stop doing whatever it is you did because someone found it offensive.

Bringing it back to this discussion, if someone said to me their preferred pronoun is 'ze' or 'ne' or 've', I'd tell them that I'm not going to say that, regardless of whether they think I'm needlessly being a jerk or offensive, or whatever. I have my reasons, and yes, those reasons trump that person's comfort and/or mental wellbeing.

[noxfox]

It's usually very clear when someone is intending to give offence, so clear in fact, it almost always goes without saying.

While that might be true irl, I find that online, it can be quite hard to tell sometimes. When it's just text, it can get awkward.

Bringing it back to this discussion, if someone said to me their preferred pronoun is 'ze' or 'ne' or 've', I'd tell them that I'm not going to say that, regardless of whether they think I'm needlessly being a jerk or offensive, or whatever. I have my reasons, and yes, those reasons trump that person's comfort and/or mental wellbeing.

What alternative would you offer, however?

[nobody]

While that might be true irl, I find that online, it can be quite hard to tell sometimes. When it's just text, it can get awkward.

That's true. Also, offence doesn't need to be intentional to do harm. (Literally and figuratively speaking) Stepping on someone's toes intentionally is mean and causes pain. Stepping on someone's toes accidentally isn't mean, but it still causes pain. One can discuss the finer details of what people should "put up with" and not, but unintentional offence can still do harm, and sometimes it's worse than when it is in fact intentional.

And I think who you're offending is an important part of that conversation too. Is it a person in power? And how are you offending them? By ridiculing something they said or did? Or are you pointing at things that have to do with their gender, ethnicity, sexuality? Are you saying/doing things that reinforces harmful stereotypes about people that are still facing oppression because of these stereotypes?

In terms of preferred pronouns, I don't personally know anyone that goes by other pronouns than the ones they've been assigned at birth. If someone asked me to use different pronouns I'd assume it wouldn't be that difficult for me to adjust

[scythe]

Point taken, and it's something I've experienced plenty of times myself. I've also seen it almost everyday with partner. She reads me comments she gets out loud and gives them all kinds of emotions she can't possible infer just from the text. So you do have a point there. We probably all thought emoji's were dumb when we first saw them, but anyone who writes regularly online understands why we need them.

As to your question, my suggestion would be just to use he, she and they. I don't see why that's not enough.

[Delete]

Sorry I know this topic should be dead but I just want to say one more thing about the vegetarian pizza thing.

Last week me and my friend hosted a movie screening in a lecture hall at my school (the movie was Caddyshack). I went to grab pizza and a couple people who said they were going to the screening asked me to grab a vegetarian pizza for them and they said they would help pay for half of it. I get 1 meat pizza and 1 veggie pizza. I go to the movie screening and they ended up not showing up and I had to pay for the whole extra veggie pizza.

I don't care if it makes me look like a dick. Never again am I buying a vegetarian side for my events they just got to figure out their own shit.

[riverfur]

Okay so I know it's been months since you posted this but

I have my reasons, and yes, those reasons trump that person's comfort and/or mental wellbeing.

You...you're saying your reasons for refusing to incorporate someone's easy request into your speech around them...is more important...than that person's mental health??

[sadlittlespook]

I didn't realize how old this thread was, whoops! Sorry!

[scythe]

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying.

[riverfur]

Why though? I mean, it's your choice to think someone's preferred pronouns are strange/unnecessary, but isn't it easier for the both of you to just call them by that pronoun?

[scythe]

It might be easier for some people, might be harder for some, I can't really answer to that. I know, for myself, it would not be 'easy' to use a made-up pronoun of someones choosing simply because they asked me to. Though, I'm not particularly interested in 'easier', and even trough my instinct is to always be nice, I'm a principled person, and I strive to uphold those principles with everything I do, even when that makes myself and others uncomfortable.

Frankly, there are a myriad of reasons why I don't engage in this choose-your-own-pronoun trend, some of which I alluded to above, but really, all you need to know is that all things being equal, I treat people equally, which is to say, I make it a habit not to arbitrarily bestow on some people special treatment, simply because that's how they'd like it.