Sep 2022
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Sep 2022
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seaweed
Sep '22
1

This is an interesting writeup. I think the title and intro might be a little misleading though, which might rub some people the wrong way given diversity is a bit of a divisive and personal topic. A guide on how to integrate a character's background/diversity into the story is good for any character as you say, but I wonder if focusing so heavily on the "tokenism" side might be a little outdated? It's a term that on its own can bring up an image of someone arguing against adding diversity to a story. Reading the opening of your post made me think you might be going for the angle of "These are things you should consider for your diverse characters", but really these are steps for any character with some extra steps for "writing and representing points of views that you aren't personally familiar with". Would that be fair?

After reading your full post my takeaway was more along the lines of: Tokenism is the term we're using for poorly integrated /thought out diversity. Tokenism is the bad way to add diversity. In order to avoid this it's important for the writer to consider how the diversity in their cast can influence the story or their writing, whether that's through major story elements, or in subtle ways that influence smaller aspects of the character. And here are some additional steps for how to understand a pov/voice you are not familiar with.

I suppose what I'm trying to say in this rambly reply is that (unless I'm totally projecting and wrong with the above) I think it could be worth making the goal of the writeup a bit clearer in the opening.

Bearkorps
Sep '22
NickRowler

Reading the OP I couldn't help but think about the recent marvel comics 'What If?' run, the one where they had Miles Morales be Thor. I think it's arguable that the comic story passed the test presented here but still the comic has generally been trashed as tokenistic. The main issue that seems to be constantly brought up in conversations I've seen/heard is the extreme reliance on stereotypes that breaks any semblance of genuine representation, which makes it all feel shallow and insulting.

Idk, just your critiques on the use of the 'write a good character' slogan got me thinking about it again.

NickRowler
Sep '22
seaweed

From what I read up, it's more that you are adding one character to the cast from a group outside the main cased in order to make the cast seem diverse.

After the Civil Rights movement there were more stories adding token black characters. The reason why a lot of them were tokens is that they were usually the only black character and sort of has to represent a whole group of people which sometimes lead into stereotypes. And when you have a cast of 50 characters and all of them are white except one, that's not diverse.

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But if your cast is small, having a token might be unavoidable.
Plus there is such a thing as a token boy, a token white, a token straight

I think Zoey from the Proud Family is a good example of a token white character

I don't think that counts as tokenism but I do agree that the comic was full of racial stereotypes and Marvel really needs help with having more writers who aren't white men in the writing room. The films included.

RobertBMarks
Sep '22

If you want to see this type in action right now, check out The Rings of Power.

They actually cast almost every single society you see to have the ethnic makeup of Southern California, regardless of how isolated from trade or travel these societies would be. The world they present makes no genealogical sense. If brown elves show up to complement the black elf, they'll have presented ALL of the societies in the show as having this makeup.

I have never been distracted by diversity casting before, but this show managed to make that happen (well, that and all of the elves looking like they just got back from a hair salon...).

NickRowler
Sep '22
1

I actually don't mind blind casting for fantasy settings. Mostly because it's a magical world, it doesn't have to follow the geography of the real world.

Who cares if Tinker Bell has a diverse set of fairy friends. They are freakin' fairies.

aqua03Party Planner
Sep '22
NickRowler

Hot take: Franklin was a genuinely good character. Sure, he was kind of the "Token" Black friend of Charlie Brown's, but reading about Schulz's thought process behind Franklin and just how hard he fought to treat Franklin as an equal despite pushback from editors and the like is honestly really inspiring.

Then again, I'm the Number #1 Peanuts Stan on this forum, so it might just be me.

RobertBMarks
Sep '22
NickRowler

Not following the geography of the real world is one thing. Not understanding how geography and ethnicity works is quite another. This show falls into the latter, not the former.

The problem isn't that there are black and brown Harfoots - the problem is that the Harfoots have the same diversity of skin colour as southern California, and there is no physical way that could happen within that group. They are small and isolated, without any of the history of immigration (or outsiders joining their group while it migrates) that would be required for this sort of ethnic diversity. They all come from the same place, and that means they all have the same sun exposure over the last several millennia. A range of browns is feasible. Skin colours ranging from what you'd get from the far north to south of the equator is not.

There are places where this type of diversity of skin colour would absolutely work. A port city, for example, or a large empire. You could probably manage this with Numenor, if I'm remembering their worldwide level of influence properly. But Numenor does not appear in episode 1 - just the elves, Easterlings, and Harfoots. We know for a fact that the Elves all come from Valinor, so unless Valinor is huge on the north/south axis, they're all going to be within a limited range of skin colours (that said, it COULD be that big, but that then begs the question of why we've only seen a single black elf and not a wider range). The Harfoots are a small and isolated (and isolationist) community, and the Easterlings (another group who could reasonably be shades of brown) are presented as being in small farming villages far from any trade routes.

You can reverse engineer their diversity checklist from the crowd scenes, and that is not a thing one should be able to do.

NickRowler
Sep '22
aqua03

Knowing the history of the character I understand why he was the only one. Schulz was trying to show how black and white children could play together during a time when their was a lot of racial tension in the US. His inclusion was controversial even for it's time.

I think because it's into the 2020s, things have changed a lot. So having a cast similar to Peanuts with 50 white characters and one black character, doesn't make your work diverse.

aqua03Party Planner
Sep '22

Yeah. I was actually thinking about how a lot of children's media I watched when growing up like CLifford, Sesame Street and the like usually did a pretty good job at showing a diverse cast by simply.... Showing a diverse cast. Sure, they weren't the most fleshed out (heck, many of the kids in Clifford were just background characters with no lines), but it did work well in showing just how normal that sort of thing should be if that makes sense.

kyupol
Sep '22

When I write, diversity is the last thing on my mind.

Yes I have a comic featuring a Filipino main character and lots of supporting and key characters are Filipino because I am Filipino myself and I lived and grew up in the Philippines for a significant portion of my life.

If the setting calls for a diverse cast, then diverse it is. Like if it's set in a modern school in a major American city. Or if it's 1000+ years in the future with political interactions among space colonies.

But if it's set in small-town America or medieval Europe, expect most characters to be white. Same thing goes in a Manila squatters area, expect most characters to be pure breed Filipino.

IndigoShirtProd
Sep '22

Yea, maybe if you're being historically accurate, maybe. But if it's set in a fantasy world, you can have people of a different skin tone, class, gender, or of any other marginalized group and then subsequently not draw attention to having them there. And for a town in America, I mean, there are small towns populated by non-white people.

RobertBMarks
Sep '22
1

It's not a matter of historical accuracy. This is Middle Earth - it is a fantasy realm. It is a matter of understanding how ethnic diversity works. You cannot have people with dramatically different skin colours living in the same community unless some of the families of said community originally came from far away. This is basic worldbuilding, and you don't even have to do much to justify it - establish that traders are going through these communities, and you've thus established a mechanism for people to come from far away and join them. Notably, the show doesn't do that (in fact, it does the exact opposite - the non-elven communities are depicted as being isolated).

And what's truly galling is that the Harfoots are literally described by Tolkien as having darker skin. People may argue about what "darker" means in this context, but you can make them all shades of brown and then point to the text and say "this is supported by what Tolkien wrote," and be RIGHT.

Then you have the Easterlings, who are described by Tolkien and in the Tolkien wiki (I don't have time to look up the reference in my Tolkien collection) as: "Their skin was either sallow (a pale yellow) or olive, their eyes were dark (dark brown and black), and their straight hair was black." (source: https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Easterlings1) So, they are described as being akin to the people who come from the Middle or Far East. You could cast all of them with actors from that area, point to the text, and say that it is completely justified by what Tolkien wrote, and be RIGHT.

So, you have three ethnic groups who have been presented in episode one. One is described in the source material as functionally being white. One can be interpreted as being shades of light brown. The third can be interpreted as being from the middle or far east. What did we get instead? With the exception of the elves, a mix of approximately 50% white, 35-40% shades of light brown, and 15-10% black (the elves are right now around 95% white, 5% black).

The show removed the actual diversity that was there, which was based on Tolkien's understanding of history in the real world, and substituted their own, which as far as I can tell was based on Southern California. As far as I can tell from the first episode, they didn't even establish any new worldbuilding to replace what they removed - I'm not sure there's any functional cultural difference between the Easterlings and the Harfoots other than one lives out in the open and the other stays hidden.

The show being in a fantasy world means that there is a greater onus to do proper worldbuilding, not less of one.

And what is the history of America? America has a colonial history marked by the displacement of the indigenous population instead of the subjugation of them. This means that when the continent was colonized, the colonizers moved there en masse with their families, and also imported ethnic minorities from other parts of the empire to do manual labour (such as slaves from Africa). The main characteristic of the colonization of North America is mass population movement into the area by people from far away.

Compare that to Africa or India, and, with the possible exception of South Africa, you get a type of colonialism marked by the subjugation and exploitation of the indigenous population, not their displacement. The colonizers tend to live in small enclaves, which may or may not relocate out of the country when colonialism in that area ends. So, yes, you will get towns in America populated by ethnic minorities with a dramatically different skin colour. But you're a lot less likely to see them in India, or China, or Japan, or sub-Saharan Africa. America is an outlier when it comes to ethnic diversity in the world, not a rule. Everywhere else tends to look a LOT more homogeneous.

I'm sorry, but the argument you are making holds no water.

JaveCraze
Sep '22
IndigoShirtProd

Could you imagine having to explain why random characters in your medieval anime have hair colors of the rainbow? No. You just want to see people with fun hair colors because it's fun. I don't have a problem with casts that are all one thing, but I personally don't think that people should have a problem with diverse stories. Again, with the anime thing, and even comic thing, only about 2% of people have blonde hair, and yet you see it all the time. Like, 3 of my characters have blonde hair because I find it fun to color/draw.

powerplantanimations
Sep '22
1
kyupol

Despite my story revolving around Mexican gods and all that, I will say that I share the same attitude. For me it's not that I don't care, I'm just straight up curious with the type of characters I make when I'm on autopilot.

That Stick Figure Isekai is probably my most diverse story ever and that's not me trying to be funny. I was generally baffled that the main cast (which'll be revealed in Season 2) has range? Meanwhile in my third story most of the protags are mostly white people which I found fascinating (especially since they live in California streets like Merced). I didn't want to change it because I'm generally interested in Irish, Italy, and Russian culture.

I'm not sure if I wanna count my second story since that's being co-written by best friend and she's WAAAAY more diverse than me. In fact, she pushed for a lesbian character to show up.

@NickRowler Also for me, I'm the opposite. It depends on what the writer wants (so we may respect the dead) and Tolken seems to be really.... REALLY obsessed with lore lmao. He seems like the type of person to go "Not like this! Like THIS!". In fact, I remember reading about his statement regarding Disney (he outright banned them when he sold the movie rights, so we know for a fact that he wanted us to respect his work). It made me go "Yeah... he would've done everything in his power to stop something like Rings of Power from even being made". Had he known about Amazon back in the day, he would've barred them too.

RobertBMarks
Sep '22
JaveCraze

Precisely who in this thread has objected to a diverse story or a story having diversity? The discussion is about whether it has been done properly (and the quick guide is about how to do it properly).

Aside from which, you're comparing apples and oranges here. You're talking about stories drawing on Western traditions written and illustrated by the Japanese, who put their own spin on it and have their own sensibilities about it. One of their sensibilities is in regards to the hair colour of their characters. But, if you notice, they usually all have the same colour skin (which should generally be interpreted as all the characters being Japanese with different coloured hair), which makes sense for a culture whose population is as homogeneous as Japan. These stories may draw from the Western fantasy traditions, but make no mistake, they are a product of Japanese culture, not Western culture.

The show under discussion here is Western in origin, and Western literature has very different sensibilities, and that includes expectations in worldbuilding. The source material was written by a British author, who was not only a specialist in the historical development of languages, he built his world around this understanding. This is no blank slate, and there's plenty of diversity already baked into the worldbuilding. Tolkien did think out where these cultures came from. So, when the show adapts a source material with worldbuilding as rich as this and even uses diversity as a cornerstone in their marketing, it has an obligation to either do a proper adaptation of the pre-existing diversity or to replace it with something that is properly thought out and fits the world.

The Rings of Power does not do this.

And, because it does not do this, it is appropriate to dissect its failure to do so.

Iris-Grimoire
Sep '22

Different backgrounds and genealogy reeeallly doesn't apply on a fantasy world either. You can just say they were really accepting of immigration in their past and that's why all the countries are really diverse.

Also one extremely important thing missing from the OP - sensitivity readers. No amount of research will save your story if you speak for a certain minority. Chances are you're about to mess up big. Talk to people from those cultures, and if they tell you that's not a good story to tell with that character, listen to them.
eg; Raya and the Last Dragon, where a bunch of white dudes decided they knew all about SEA cultures and messed up big. They knew all the staple foods, dress and architecture alright, they still made "the greedy city", "the thief city", "the warrior city" with random amounts of an ethnicity's elements and no one stopped them somehow.

RobertBMarks
Sep '22

I would point out that I do specifically mention reaching out to groups who are duly authorized to speak for the community you are researching in point #3. And, I will re-iterate it here - you should never be afraid to reach out to one of these groups. They will generally provide you with resources that you might not otherwise have (an outreach of mine years ago resulted in a Muslim student society group presenting me with this absolutely beautiful bilingual copy of the Qu'ran, which I have used as a reference and to this day remains a prized possession).

That said, sensitivity readers can be a double-edged sword. If you're going to employ one, you have to pick them carefully. It is all too easy to get one who either has an axe to grind or uses the opportunity to engage in censorship (imagine, for a moment, an American sensitivity reader suggesting that maybe you shouldn't tell a story about one of the more genocidal moments of the Indian Wars, a Japanese sensitivity reader suggesting that one shouldn't write about the Rape of Nanking, an Afghan sensitivity reader suggesting that one shouldn't write about honour killings, or a Chinese sensitivity reader dissuading somebody from telling a story from the Uyghur point of view). So, look for one who is professional, has a deep understanding of the culture in question, and will generally limit themselves to fact checking and spotting any major cultural faux pas.

(And if they go beyond that, remember that it is your story, and you have no obligation to launder any other culture's dirty laundry.)

RobertBMarks
Sep '22
IndigoShirtProd

Well, I AGREE!

So...um...there...

...take...that?