Regarding the General Attitude Around Collaborations

[Flios]

Disclaimer: This is simply my own opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with it. We can debate in the replies if you want though.

So, I've lately noticed this general trend around the collaboration category(I'm not talking about all of the posts there, just some). Many people attempting to collaborate don't really know how to correctly form a deal that suits both them and the other person.

Recently, I have taken the time to help out some new creators with being free AI art restriction because I thought that it would be a good idea to use my skills to benefit others and to earn some credit. I'm not mentioning names here, but I offered to help out this one person for free and was disappointed in their attitude.

The idea of collaboration is to work together and not have a hierarchal order. No one's the boss in a collaboration unless clearly defined when the two or more people struck the deal. This person I tried to help out literally accepted my offer after reviewing my portfolio, but kept expressing dissent at my skills. This other person(not mentioning names) might be reading this right now, but I'll happily show my concern to them.

To get a clear idea of what was going on to show everyone who is reading, I'll quote something they said via a screenshot for proof.

As you see, I tried to respond politely as possible because I could understand that most people are very obsessed with having the best they could possibly have(me included), but I was still a bit put off by their attitude.

Honestly, I don't want to put any blame on the other person, but I really hope that we, as a community, can at least try to be more cooperative and less harsh on each other.

However, it's not just this type of attitude that kind of ticks me off, it's also the types of collaborations people tend to prefer to form

An IRL acquaintance of mine(again, no names because they're all entitled to their own privacy) accepted a commission recently and was really pissed off because the other person kept demanding without providing anything themselves.

My friend here was doing the whole thing for free, but the other person(someone totally new to the industry even though they had skills) kept asking for my friend's work.

I can understand this whole concept of "I need verification of your skills since I've already verified mine", but seriously? I got to read their messages, and I have to say, it also pisses me off to see this type of treatment for something unpaid.

Another thing I want to mention in this thread is the divide between writers and artists on the platform and how it affects collaborations. To most readers, a comic is indefinitely more interesting and stunning than a novel. I can totally relate and understand that, but in collaborations, it's upsetting to see that same type of discrimination.

Some people consider writing to be "easier" than drawing, so writers often end up getting paid less(especially on comic collaborations).

If you are doubting my validity, I assure you that I am NOT new to the industry even though this account was created less than two months ago and I have met real people, whether online or in person, who have either gotten underpaid for their comic scriptwriting or they have gotten discriminated against because of their art style.

I know that the world is not a kind place where someone messing around without real actual skills could win a fortune, but I hope this topic brings at least some awareness to this issue.

I sincerely hope that everyone who reads this will at least try to improve on their methods of collaboration, and by that, I mean increased respect for each other and the willingness to treat everyone as equals no matter their profession, art style, etc.

Again, you can take my words as a grain of salt if you'd like and I would respect your opinion(s), but I hope people will respect mine in return.

I'm also sorry if I dampened your mood, I know I sound like a sentimental boomer right now(I'm not, trust me)

Also, since I put this into the Questions category, let me know what you think about this topic, do you agree or disagree with me? I know there are people with much more experience than me here on the forums, and I'd like to hear your thoughts

[DokiDokiTsuna]

A surprisingly fresh take on the topic~. ^^

Personally, I think stuff like this tends to happen when people aren't actually ready to collaborate (i.e. work with another human being to accomplish a subjective, artistic goal) yet. They think just telling someone else what they want is enough, like they're ordering at a restaurant...when really, that's barely scratching the surface of what it takes to successfully collaborate with another artist. There are a lot of soft skills involved, and one of them is realizing that the end result of any collaboration is going to be a compromise.

No matter what your initial vision is, it's not going to turn out exactly like that. Another human mind is contributing to your creation, and part of their artistic vision is gonna be in it too; there's no way around it. And at some point you have to learn to appreciate that, and even to enjoy it, instead of feeling repulsed and trying to retake control. You should know the difference between an idea that you wouldn't use and an idea that you just wouldn't think of using.

I've been through a LOT of terrible collaboration attempts myself, including one where someone offered their services as a writer to help develop a story idea and eventually co-author a novel, and even though I'm a writer myself, I thought that they might be able to help me with a story I'd been struggling with. I mean, even if it didn't work out, I could at least learn something from their insights, I figured.

Instead I ended up staying awake with this person until 4 AM on Discord trying to convince them that civilizations founded on war and conquest are an extremely common concept (see: real life); no, it's not impossible or "twisted" to write a humorous story within such a society (see: REAL LIFE); if you're used to writing more grounded mysteries, I can come up with magic approximations to things like gunpowder markings or fingerprints, but you have to give me ideas of your own to go on; no, the existence of magic itself would not force society to immediately break down, HAVE YOU EVER READ ANY WORK OF FICTION IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE--

...Needless to say, we didn't make it past that first discussion. ^^;;; The worst part was that I explained outright that my story concept was a fantasy mystery filled with dark humor, and they accepted the offer despite apparently not understanding what any of that means. And then they forced me to spend hours explaining to them how my fictional universe worked before offering any ideas of their own, AND all the while telling me that all my ideas were essentially nonsensical.

Like, if all you're going to do to any potential collaborator is pump them for information, rejecting everything they have to say until they finally come up with something you think YOU can work with (I assume that's what they were trying to do)...why did you ask for a collaborator? Do you really think it's okay to treat another person like that?? Would YOU like to work with someone who had such disdain for your ideas and still acted as if they were there to help you??

If you're willing to fish through a steady stream of 'nonsense' until you find something good, that's what the internet is for. Find a random writing prompt generator to give you what you want, and leave actual people out of it. In the case of those looking for artists, find some royalty free-images (or maybe consider paying for a stockphoto library) watch some Photoshop tutorials, and leave actual people out of it.

A collaboration is a relationship, not a transaction, and if you don't know how to behave in a relationship, PLEASE don't start one.

[powerplantanimations]

I usually shut-up and let doodleandie take the wheel on certain situations since I see my artist as a co-writer despite them not exactly writing the script? She add certain details that help elevate the plot. For example; I wanted Tizoc's world to be pure Jojo aesthetic, but Andie decided to do Aztec art instead because 1) it was easy for her and 2) it was a more interesting reveal. ALSO it adds funny implications to why Tizoc's stick figure was posing like a Jojo character and added more storytelling potential as to WHY he does that. I thought that was brilliant.

The stick figure gimmick also allows her to get creative. I also shut-up around character designs. Naota didn't have a design sheet. Neither did Nikado. Red Giantess was all Andie. I just give small little details. The only times where I come in is making the comic less violent and continuity details.

I think I learned to appreciate the artist... especially since they're difficult to come by.

[lizzyjones]

For me, there's a difference between a paid commission and a collaboration. A commission is closer to someone ordering at a restaurant: you give me what you'd like to see and I create it. If you don't like it there might be some wiggle room, but in the end you chose me to create something for you and that's what I did. Too bad, so sad, that's the end of our interaction. I don't owe you more than what I promised to give you.

A collaboration is working together towards a common, shared piece. That means you give something and I give something. Typically I will only give so much before saying "okay, your turn". I've tried collaborating on novels a few times and it hasn't really worked out. I usually end up getting ghosted, which is disappointing because there's always something about the idea that I liked.

If someone's acting this way then what they want is a commission and not a collaboration. They aren't putting in any of the work and instead are manipulating you into doing the bulk of the labor. For a collaboration it's a very bad start.

The other thing to consider is that a good deal of writers out there are probably introverts. No, writing a novel is not easier - it's a hell of a lot of work - but confronting artists/editors/readers who have that mindset is scary for someone who isn't used to a lot of social interaction (or just doesn't like it). Confrontation is not the strong suit, explaining all the work that goes into it is complicated, and there's not as much support for novel writing in Tapas. There were times I'd go to present a paper for class and I'd know I have the material absolutely down pat. That didn't stop me from shaking going up to read. Didn't stop me from forgetting to breathe sometimes (one professor gave me the helpful hint to right little notes to myself in the margins like "breathe here!" and "slow down, it's okay"). Online confrontation is similar. An introvert is more likely to just accept the abuse and discrimination than protest. Not all of us, mind you, but a good portion.

It's an issue, and it's not limited to Tapas. It's not even limited to collaboration. I have a master's degree in English and my mom still thinks I basically wrote my thesis in a day because "I'm good at writing". Apparently that means writing doesn't take any effort at all, and no matter what I tell her she doesn't change her mind.

[rajillustration]

I agree about many of your points here. Like when you do a collaboration you should know your collaborators well before you start, and have a good idea of what it is you're about to create. Otherwise, you can end up with a situation where one person does a majority of the work

But to clarify the writer vs artist thing. It's really important to remember that on this forum, and just in webcomics in general, most good comic artists are also very good writers. I don't consider myself one or the other, I'm literally both, I have a novel on this website, I have a comic on this website. And yes there's exceptions to that rule, but generally all the artists here working on stories started by writing stories in novel format. We weren't born out of the womb drawing comics, we started with words.

So don't take this the wrong way, but when we say "easier" we don't mean your job is easy. Of course it's hard. I write, I know it's hard. But it is easier, because you aren't also illustrating.

So I wrote my script in several months, yeah. But I've been drawing it for 2 years and will be going for several more. So yes, the writing was so much easier, I'm considering moving a large part of the story to a side novel so I can actually finish the project.

Some people consider writing to be "easier" than drawing, so writers often end up getting paid less(especially on comic collaborations).

This pops up time and time again in this forum and every time I wonder if you've ever logged the hours. This is typically why the artist is paid more. It's not meant to be a form of discrimination, it's just time. If I had hired a co-writer, they'd also be making less than I would of the cut. If I hired a flatter, they'd make less too. The person putting in the time, gets paid the most.

Really the only time that an author should get paid more is if they were a celebrity status that can really sell the book, and you'd be making so much you wouldn't care.

[candiedcotton]

Well put, I couldn't say it better myself. It took me... about a month to write out my entire script. It will take me years to finish it. I've written a lot of books well before tackling comics and while writing isn't easy, it is exceptionally easier than drawing.

I can describe a scene in a room in maybe five minutes. It will take me five days to draw out the 30+ panels of the same scene.

[Flios]

I completely agree with everything you said here. I often see newbies messing up at collaboration more than pros. The reason? They think you're working for them or that they are simply ordering something on your menu at a restaurant. I tend to shut up about disdain because, well, I admit that my work isn't the best out of everyone, but it really pisses me off when I see people who don't understand the art process insult my sketches.
That being said, most collaborations are really nothing but a compromise, just as you stated. I confess to being hotheaded sometimes, but yeah, I agree with you. A collaboration isn't a transaction for sure.

[Flios]

Yeah, I agree with you around your point. The more time you put in, the more of the cut you'd make, after all. I was simply kind of angry when I wrote my post and oversimplified the whole topic into a matter of sentences(I could write a thesis on this thing if I was really determined ). I understand that most people have seen this type of post lots of times, but I guess I just had to add to it. Now that I've cooled down a bit, I understand the whole thing better.
@candiedcotton I agree with you too. I know firsthand that drawing is very time-consuming
@powerplantanimations I see a lot of successful collaborations also, it's just lately I've been damned with so many bad collaborations
@lizzyjones Yeah, I agree with your opinion. Writing is not "easy", it just takes a bit less time than drawing. it's great to hear from people more experienced than me on this topic.

[EncryptedWriting]

This pops up time and time again in this forum and every time I wonder if you've ever logged the hours. This is typically why the artist is paid more. It's not meant to be a form of discrimination, it's just time. If I had hired a co-writer, they'd also be making less than I would of the cut. If I hired a flatter, they'd make less too. The person putting in the time, gets paid the most.

This gets really interesting when we look into the idea of the writer paying for the collaboration. I still consider it a collaboration but a paid one instead. So when profits do, hypothetically, get split, it must differ in percentages. Like, I know I am paying for one of my collaborations right now, and I assume we wont make any sort of profit, but its interesting to think what the split might be.

It also brings forth the idea of who holds the burden in the most work. I am not even sure if that can really be measured. I want to say artist, as time wise it is, but it feels like the writer creating a script can take a lot of time too. I learn that as a new artist, art takes a looonnng time. I would say one panel takes me the same time as one chapter of my novel (3-5k words), without references too. It's a neat conversation/ idea.

[lizzyjones]

I’m not sure that it’s always true that the art takes longer. I think that depends heavily on the writer, the artist, and the experience both of them have. A new writer might take 2-3 times as long writing a script when you count in all the time researching, writing, editing, editing again, proofreading/copy editing, and then submitting to the artist and making changes based on their feedback. An experienced writer might not take as long because they know their own habits and styles, where they struggle, and what pitfalls to avoid. The exact same thing is true of artists. New artists might take longer on the storyboard, trying to make things work that just don’t translate to art well, and spend more time sketching/coloring/finalizing because they are less familiar with their own skills. An experienced one could look at a script and say “I can’t draw that this way, so I’ll do what works”, and that will ultimately take less time.

That’s why it’s so complicated.

[DiegoPalacios]

Got some positive experiences collaborating with amazing artists, so here are some tips to work things smoothly.

1-Compensation: exposure, experience or whatever new mumbo-jumbo buzzword folks use today is not a form of currency. I recommend to either pay per page/drawing or go with percentages. (the latter is harder to achieve because you gotta get people to believe in the potential of the project when it's in an early stage)

2-We gotta choose our partners carefully. It's better to have no partner than a bad partner, that's why i prefer working with people i know that have the skills required and are trustworthy. A good way to get this info is to see their portfolios and getting to chat with them.

3-If you are the writer, communicate clearly your needs and what you want drawn. The artist can't guess what's on your mind and you want to save as much time as possible by avoiding many unnecessary redraws. If you don't know what you want, figure it out before making a request. In my case i often draw a sketch with concept art or give a reference or two for the artist. After that i trust that they will do their magic.

4-If you are an artist don't be afraid to ask questions, it shows that you care and helps for a better communication and avoid unnecessary redraws. Be clear about which deadlines and tasks are manageable and which ones are not, and of course, don't sell yourself short.

5-A common question one may have is who gets the last word on what?......it depends a lot of what you both agreed. The person hiring gets the last word, but if you are in a partnership involving shared revenue, the writer has the last word in plot and the artist gets the last word in art. Of course, no matter who is in charge you can exchange ideas and opinions, sometimes an artist surprises me with a way to improve something.

6-if you are the one paying, pay on time or as close as on time as possible. People are dedicating their time and they deserve compensation without an unnecessary wait. If you can't pay on certain dates be upfront and inform your partner.

[candiedcotton]

I do want to make it clear (and just adding to everything already said) that I have worked for free on a number of pieces that I just plain really enjoyed.

I'm not sure how common my mentality is, but for me, I'm more likely to work for free with a writer who has a solid script already and a story I really like, than I am to work for pay on a story I don't like or with a clearly badly written script. I've experienced both a few times over the years.

[lizzyjones]

(Also, I should point out that I am absolutely amazed that you wrote a script in a month. I can only work that quickly for short stories, and even then I don’t feel I’ve put in the time they deserve.)

[candiedcotton]

Size of the story matters, lol.

It was a novella and I was stuck in an empty room with nothing but a typewriter and a stack of typing paper. I made use of it.

[lizzyjones]

Sounds amazing. I wish I could have even a day like that! I feel like I’d get so much accomplished. 🥺

[candiedcotton]

Probably, I certainly did.

I have an immune disorder and was delirious with illness at the time, and couldn't be exposed to people. So I wrote a book, most of which I don't remember. Just a small room and the endless smell of warm ink.

It was a strange book.

[Kaisei]

I think there's bound to be a lot of tension around collaborations because it usually starts with one person's bright idea. It's harder to dedicate yourself to another person's pet project, especially if you aren't getting paid the going professional rate (which is usually the case - people want to bring their project into reality, but they don't have the cash to hire freelancers. That's why they are picking up collaborators on a forum). Also, since that first person already has a set idea of how certain parts of their idea should play out, it may be difficult for them to accept another person's vision for the project. So in the end, they may start bossing around a collaborator that they aren't paying.

IMO the expectation for writing skills is lower than the expectation for artistic skills on Tapas. How many premium comics are just trope soup? Or maybe the plot is thrilling, but the actual writing is terrible. I think people are, in general, more confident in their writing skills than their drawing skills (because "hey I wrote research papers in high school"). I can describe a scene in five minutes, but it will suck. Editing and revision make for better writing. Reading good books, doing research, and having life experience also make for better writing. Ideally, I think a collaboration may work best with several artists per writer because yeah, drawing characters as they move around the scene and change body positions takes a lot of time. Also, in a comic, there simply isn't as much text as you would have in a novel because the artwork takes over the tasks of describing characters, scenery, and movement. However, writers are often responsible for the storyline, which is more important than both the art and the text combined. Payment should be based on actual contributions, not perceived contributions, and that can get tricky when you are splitting revenues by percentage.

[rajillustration]

Also, in a comic, there simply isn't as much text as you would have in a novel because the artwork takes over the tasks of describing characters, scenery, and movement. However, writers are often responsible for the storyline, which is more important than both the art and the text combined. Payment should be based on actual contributions, not perceived contributions, and that can get tricky when you are splitting revenues by percentage.

yeah, this is why I think it's so important that writers who are looking for collabs have some work online that artists can read through. Comics are a different ball game than writing online serialized novels, (and most importantly, original works, and not fan works that have a reading audience built in that won't care about the quality so long as their OP makes out.)

the pay structure has gotten kinda weird over the last like 100 years of comics publishing, but like how many webcomics are really going to turn a profit, out of all these collabs? So few that I think most artists just want to be paid up front because we know that the royalties are going to be like zilch most of the time, or if it's free, to have the opportunity to work with friends we really like working with. And those are projects that tend to be so short that there's no risk really, if it's like what, 4 pages? Sure, wtv.

[Kaisei]

An online portfolio would be great, but if you aren't paying the writer (except in possible future revenue), you can't expect them to be particularly experienced (it goes both ways). Established writers are either going to be working on their own projects or working for guaranteed income.

For long term projects, it might be best to have a trial period to check for compatibility of personality and style, with no hard feelings if someone decides the collaboration won't work out.

But yeah, in creative fields, only the few can make a living. Obviously, artists and writers both would prefer to be paid upfront, but they aren't all going to get that opportunity.

[rajillustration]

Oh I totally agree about having a trial period, I've seen too many people feel like their married to a collab that they have grown to actively hate because of the time commitment and the people involved. A collab can easily scope creep from a 10 page short story to an 800 page epic.

But as for a portfolio I didn't mean needing to be published by a publisher, because I agree that's too high of expectations. I meant like personal work. Because much like an artist, a writer should be always making a portfolio of their personal works, so I don't really understand why they don't have one. We're literally on a site that lets you post novels for free, why don't they link novels most of the time in those collab posts? It's kind of odd. That or they'll be like "I can't post my work because I don't want someone to steal it" which is a whole other trust can of worms when you're going to be entering a collaboration with them.