Regarding the General Attitude Around Collaborations

For me, there's a difference between a paid commission and a collaboration. A commission is closer to someone ordering at a restaurant: you give me what you'd like to see and I create it. If you don't like it there might be some wiggle room, but in the end you chose me to create something for you and that's what I did. Too bad, so sad, that's the end of our interaction. I don't owe you more than what I promised to give you.

A collaboration is working together towards a common, shared piece. That means you give something and I give something. Typically I will only give so much before saying "okay, your turn". I've tried collaborating on novels a few times and it hasn't really worked out. I usually end up getting ghosted, which is disappointing because there's always something about the idea that I liked.

If someone's acting this way then what they want is a commission and not a collaboration. They aren't putting in any of the work and instead are manipulating you into doing the bulk of the labor. For a collaboration it's a very bad start.

The other thing to consider is that a good deal of writers out there are probably introverts. No, writing a novel is not easier - it's a hell of a lot of work - but confronting artists/editors/readers who have that mindset is scary for someone who isn't used to a lot of social interaction (or just doesn't like it). Confrontation is not the strong suit, explaining all the work that goes into it is complicated, and there's not as much support for novel writing in Tapas. There were times I'd go to present a paper for class and I'd know I have the material absolutely down pat. That didn't stop me from shaking going up to read. Didn't stop me from forgetting to breathe sometimes (one professor gave me the helpful hint to right little notes to myself in the margins like "breathe here!" and "slow down, it's okay"). Online confrontation is similar. An introvert is more likely to just accept the abuse and discrimination than protest. Not all of us, mind you, but a good portion.

It's an issue, and it's not limited to Tapas. It's not even limited to collaboration. I have a master's degree in English and my mom still thinks I basically wrote my thesis in a day because "I'm good at writing". Apparently that means writing doesn't take any effort at all, and no matter what I tell her she doesn't change her mind.

I agree about many of your points here. Like when you do a collaboration you should know your collaborators well before you start, and have a good idea of what it is you're about to create. Otherwise, you can end up with a situation where one person does a majority of the work

But to clarify the writer vs artist thing. It's really important to remember that on this forum, and just in webcomics in general, most good comic artists are also very good writers. I don't consider myself one or the other, I'm literally both, I have a novel on this website, I have a comic on this website. And yes there's exceptions to that rule, but generally all the artists here working on stories started by writing stories in novel format. We weren't born out of the womb drawing comics, we started with words.

So don't take this the wrong way, but when we say "easier" we don't mean your job is easy. Of course it's hard. I write, I know it's hard. But it is easier, because you aren't also illustrating.

So I wrote my script in several months, yeah. But I've been drawing it for 2 years and will be going for several more. So yes, the writing was so much easier, I'm considering moving a large part of the story to a side novel so I can actually finish the project.

This pops up time and time again in this forum and every time I wonder if you've ever logged the hours. This is typically why the artist is paid more. It's not meant to be a form of discrimination, it's just time. If I had hired a co-writer, they'd also be making less than I would of the cut. If I hired a flatter, they'd make less too. The person putting in the time, gets paid the most.

Really the only time that an author should get paid more is if they were a celebrity status that can really sell the book, and you'd be making so much you wouldn't care.

Well put, I couldn't say it better myself. It took me... about a month to write out my entire script. It will take me years to finish it. I've written a lot of books well before tackling comics and while writing isn't easy, it is exceptionally easier than drawing.

I can describe a scene in a room in maybe five minutes. It will take me five days to draw out the 30+ panels of the same scene.

I’m not sure that it’s always true that the art takes longer. I think that depends heavily on the writer, the artist, and the experience both of them have. A new writer might take 2-3 times as long writing a script when you count in all the time researching, writing, editing, editing again, proofreading/copy editing, and then submitting to the artist and making changes based on their feedback. An experienced writer might not take as long because they know their own habits and styles, where they struggle, and what pitfalls to avoid. The exact same thing is true of artists. New artists might take longer on the storyboard, trying to make things work that just don’t translate to art well, and spend more time sketching/coloring/finalizing because they are less familiar with their own skills. An experienced one could look at a script and say “I can’t draw that this way, so I’ll do what works”, and that will ultimately take less time.

That’s why it’s so complicated.

Got some positive experiences collaborating with amazing artists, so here are some tips to work things smoothly.

1-Compensation: exposure, experience or whatever new mumbo-jumbo buzzword folks use today is not a form of currency. I recommend to either pay per page/drawing or go with percentages. (the latter is harder to achieve because you gotta get people to believe in the potential of the project when it's in an early stage)

2-We gotta choose our partners carefully. It's better to have no partner than a bad partner, that's why i prefer working with people i know that have the skills required and are trustworthy. A good way to get this info is to see their portfolios and getting to chat with them.

3-If you are the writer, communicate clearly your needs and what you want drawn. The artist can't guess what's on your mind and you want to save as much time as possible by avoiding many unnecessary redraws. If you don't know what you want, figure it out before making a request. In my case i often draw a sketch with concept art or give a reference or two for the artist. After that i trust that they will do their magic.

4-If you are an artist don't be afraid to ask questions, it shows that you care and helps for a better communication and avoid unnecessary redraws. Be clear about which deadlines and tasks are manageable and which ones are not, and of course, don't sell yourself short.

5-A common question one may have is who gets the last word on what?......it depends a lot of what you both agreed. The person hiring gets the last word, but if you are in a partnership involving shared revenue, the writer has the last word in plot and the artist gets the last word in art. Of course, no matter who is in charge you can exchange ideas and opinions, sometimes an artist surprises me with a way to improve something.

6-if you are the one paying, pay on time or as close as on time as possible. People are dedicating their time and they deserve compensation without an unnecessary wait. If you can't pay on certain dates be upfront and inform your partner.

I do want to make it clear (and just adding to everything already said) that I have worked for free on a number of pieces that I just plain really enjoyed.

I'm not sure how common my mentality is, but for me, I'm more likely to work for free with a writer who has a solid script already and a story I really like, than I am to work for pay on a story I don't like or with a clearly badly written script. I've experienced both a few times over the years.

Size of the story matters, lol.

It was a novella and I was stuck in an empty room with nothing but a typewriter and a stack of typing paper. I made use of it.

Sounds amazing. I wish I could have even a day like that! I feel like I’d get so much accomplished. 🥺

Probably, I certainly did.

I have an immune disorder and was delirious with illness at the time, and couldn't be exposed to people. So I wrote a book, most of which I don't remember. Just a small room and the endless smell of warm ink.

It was a strange book.

I think there's bound to be a lot of tension around collaborations because it usually starts with one person's bright idea. It's harder to dedicate yourself to another person's pet project, especially if you aren't getting paid the going professional rate (which is usually the case - people want to bring their project into reality, but they don't have the cash to hire freelancers. That's why they are picking up collaborators on a forum). Also, since that first person already has a set idea of how certain parts of their idea should play out, it may be difficult for them to accept another person's vision for the project. So in the end, they may start bossing around a collaborator that they aren't paying.

IMO the expectation for writing skills is lower than the expectation for artistic skills on Tapas. How many premium comics are just trope soup? Or maybe the plot is thrilling, but the actual writing is terrible. I think people are, in general, more confident in their writing skills than their drawing skills (because "hey I wrote research papers in high school"). I can describe a scene in five minutes, but it will suck. Editing and revision make for better writing. Reading good books, doing research, and having life experience also make for better writing. Ideally, I think a collaboration may work best with several artists per writer because yeah, drawing characters as they move around the scene and change body positions takes a lot of time. Also, in a comic, there simply isn't as much text as you would have in a novel because the artwork takes over the tasks of describing characters, scenery, and movement. However, writers are often responsible for the storyline, which is more important than both the art and the text combined. Payment should be based on actual contributions, not perceived contributions, and that can get tricky when you are splitting revenues by percentage.

yeah, this is why I think it's so important that writers who are looking for collabs have some work online that artists can read through. Comics are a different ball game than writing online serialized novels, (and most importantly, original works, and not fan works that have a reading audience built in that won't care about the quality so long as their OP makes out.)

the pay structure has gotten kinda weird over the last like 100 years of comics publishing, but like how many webcomics are really going to turn a profit, out of all these collabs? So few that I think most artists just want to be paid up front because we know that the royalties are going to be like zilch most of the time, or if it's free, to have the opportunity to work with friends we really like working with. And those are projects that tend to be so short that there's no risk really, if it's like what, 4 pages? Sure, wtv.

An online portfolio would be great, but if you aren't paying the writer (except in possible future revenue), you can't expect them to be particularly experienced (it goes both ways). Established writers are either going to be working on their own projects or working for guaranteed income.

For long term projects, it might be best to have a trial period to check for compatibility of personality and style, with no hard feelings if someone decides the collaboration won't work out.

But yeah, in creative fields, only the few can make a living. Obviously, artists and writers both would prefer to be paid upfront, but they aren't all going to get that opportunity.

Oh I totally agree about having a trial period, I've seen too many people feel like their married to a collab that they have grown to actively hate because of the time commitment and the people involved. A collab can easily scope creep from a 10 page short story to an 800 page epic.

But as for a portfolio I didn't mean needing to be published by a publisher, because I agree that's too high of expectations. I meant like personal work. Because much like an artist, a writer should be always making a portfolio of their personal works, so I don't really understand why they don't have one. We're literally on a site that lets you post novels for free, why don't they link novels most of the time in those collab posts? It's kind of odd. That or they'll be like "I can't post my work because I don't want someone to steal it" which is a whole other trust can of worms when you're going to be entering a collaboration with them.

I just want to drop a little thing about writing vs. art that I think gets overlooked by a lot of writers... The artists have to do every step a writer does. So often I see writers trying to factor in things like "brain-storming" and "research" and "draft-writing" into how long the writing takes them but, like... artists have to do the same thing lol. They have to do visual development for characters and setting, doing multiple iterations to see what reads well. They have to look up and practice drawing the rigging of a 17th century tall ship, or the skyline of 1920's New York City. They have to try multiple drafts of panel layout and composition before they arrive at the final sketch. And it all just takes longer just because it physically takes longer to draw than to write (it takes me the same amount of time per page to arrive at the final script as it does to arrive at the ROUGH composition - not even factoring in the time it will then take me to complete the page. The amount of time it takes to describe a crowd and the feel of it is not even in the same zip code as the amount of time it will take to draw it).

So, like... it's not "undervaluing" writing to say that it's just faster to do, and I say this as someone who is a comic writer-illustrator and also a prose writer, so I think writing is pretty cool. But there's just no comparison. It's really not an insult to writers to say that artists deserve more compensation or more consideration for their comfort/interests because if we actually valued both skills equally, they should get more based on time committed alone.