Self censorship

[Iris-Grimoire]

Was this really needed? You could have said "the new popular series on tv." Instead you come off as very bias. Everyone gets scrutinized in movies/TV. It's not a identity thing so don't make it one.

Yes, it is Anything tumblr and twitter currently has their fangs on that's not triple A production might still be deserving of some criticism, but the amount of vitriol when they realize they can @ the creator to throw all their frustrations that it's not made for them, directly at said user, is absolutely a phenomenon.

But see, how much research is enough? How do you know you're not overstepping until you've already posted the work and someone tells you that you were? What qualifies as 'having a bit of a say in the matter'?

That's usually where I'd recommend bringing a sensitivity reader in;; the truth is, you really can't draw a line like you mentioned, and a CW is always better to cover your bases. But you've gotta try, it's what I wanted to emphasize the most. You gotta make some mistakes to become a better writer, so it's better to trip on small pitfalls that come from doing research but naturally get missed, than write something that causes actual harm because no attempt was made.

On bringing up the cis white guy thing, yeah, it's what @VibrantFox said. A rich straight dude with friends in the industry can say "yeah I wanna make a story where a gay guy suffers then dies" can get paid and compliments for it(and get a couple posts criticizing the decision that never reach them), while a minority creator can do tons of research and do something really thoughtful, but use "queer" in an audience that would rather adopt another general term, and get grilled and harassed off of social media for it. One actually did something really boneheaded and probably had tons of other problems in the work, the other did a genuine misread and mistake, but the latter catches far more flak for it because they're acessible.

I guess I don't have any personal examples other than, "oh I switched out species because this fantastical creature comes from a marginalized group and they're frequently misrepresented" because they get left at the cutting room floor wayyyy early and I move on to other stories.
Basically this scene but it all happens in my mind and I've forgotten the concept by next week

[BoomerZ]

If you don't thing a "rich straight dude" can't be cancelled for writing the wrong story or saying the wrong thing from the outrage group on twitter and social media, you live in a fantasy world.

[VibrantFox]

it's far less to do with being socially ostracized and far more that the level of consequence or impact it has on the respective individual.

the accessible marginalized individual in most cases gets pushed off a platform (i've watched this happen via mass false reports getting accounts deleted or permanently banned) or put into physical danger (i.e. doxxing which a very large number of marginalized folks can vouch for and enough research thru reputable sources can show these statistics) meanwhile the "rich white guy" can easily shut things down or is for the most part untouchable coz negative critique (or "cancellation") doesn't really extend past social media platforms. Those guys aren't losing their jobs or having their well-being compromised and very rarely do those guys show remorse and if anything tend to double down on their stances

i get you've got an angle but facts show otherwise, so the "fantasy world" seems to be one of your own making

also since i imagine you're the kind of person who wants proof:

• the validate visual novel game
• (pretty easy to google but check your sources) stats on twitch streamers and what parties are getting doxxed and swatted
• there was an instance where someone who worked on infinity train happened to draw a poc character from the show much lighter than they do in any other official art and it was to be featured at gallery nucleus. fans of the show and character point this out and no one really did much of anything save for giving out half-assed apologies and the creator of the show blocked black creators specifically in regards to the criticism given he defended the artist (it's possible these folks were listed in a block chain but the point stands that folks were barred from debating)
• nessa pokemon fanart and skintone debates
• cookie run fanart and skintone/"dough color" debates

i can probably add more but that's the most that come to mind

specifically with regards to minorities and marginalized folks taking more flack than their white counterparts you can even look into the youtube debate that rose up after cory, markiplier and jack (as well as a number of other youtube creators) talked about some things they observed with regards to visibility of their videos and channel overall versus how the youtube staff responded

and i wanna be clear this isn't me attempting to make some kind of targeted attack but when voices of people are shut out or silenced it becomes incredibly painful when people deny that it's happened or is happening but please tell us that we're making up false realities

[also i'm very sorry to op in the way this is likely derailing but i just wanted to quickly give a rebuttal and if requested will quickly move to delete this]

[BoomerZ]

Just stop. I don't deny it's happening. I deny its a marginalized person problem. If a rich white person makes the "wrong" opinion, they can lose their career just as easy as a non-white person. You tube is known for banning people for their opinion and that is their livelihood. The outrage crowd knows no skin color. They destroy anyone they don't like. And by saying people should use sensitivity readers and do research on stuff to keep them from being attacked makes you fall right into their hands. That is censorship. It's a threat to say "speak right or we will destroy you." Everyone needs to tell people that get outraged at stories to go fuck themselves and not read it. If you have a story to tell, write it. Those that say it's problematic, ignore them. If you really are writing a bad story, the audience won't be there, that will be your proof. We need to start acting like adults and not taking everything as an attack.

Finally people like you need to understand the "rich white guy" doesn't get away with as much as you think. But it's very easy to demonize them as the "other" to blame problems on. And very few writers are rich anyway, and almost no comic artists are. The outrage to skin color of a fan artwork isn't coming from "white" people, 99% of the time it's from minorities. The asian writer that wrote a story about slavery in a fantasy world was drive to cancel her book by non-whites complaining she couldn't write about it because its a black issue. This is just making everyone miserable. No good is coming from this but censorship.

[VibrantFox]

to be fair i do agree with the point that folks can write what they want and that reader response can serve as an answer but i wont argue further as there's clearly no point

[Freemints30]

I wanna know who are those youtubers with the "wrong opinions" who got banned you speak of

I mostly agree in terms of fictional content. But like if your whole video is trying to educate and you are spreading misinformation the rules are "dont spread misinformation" then.. that's not censorship. If I had rules on not pissing on my floor. And you decided to piss for """freedom"". Me kicking you out is not censorship or infringing on your rights. You can still piss else where.

But like the usual white guy types I've seen scream censorship of thier opinions are usual still quite active and talkaive. Maybe even gain a following on from thier "I just got canceled donate to my patreon"

While folks like the fall's lady, a trans woman, lost everything due to a fictional book.

[DiegoPalacios]

Personally, i filter my content based on the age rating of the story i'm making and i'm pretty upfront about it so the right audiences go to the right places.

So.....i'm willing to write adult content that interests me to make, but i wouldn't allow my nephews or other kids to watch it and would not publish it in a site oriented to children.

Now......about trigger warnings.....personally i prefer to do a more general warning about the kind of content to expect in the beginning of the story that avoids reaching spoilers. (ex: this story contains violence, abuse, sex scenes, etc...) So people can be informed if they want to deal with stuff that may be heavy for them without undermining the reader experience for people who are willing to deal with that kind of story.

So....in few words.....i give the right warnings and put the content in the right places.

[TAMAnnoying]

@Freemints30 @BoomerZ

"The thread is about how YOU censor yourself"

You guys can make a new thread on cancel culture. If you wanna continue

[BoomerZ]

I believe I said to let people pound sand on telling you what you can and can't say/do. That is on topic as you self censor if you believe doing so will keep those people from attacking you. So before you put your gif up telling us what to do, please read what we wrote.

I mostly agree in terms of fictional content. But like if your whole video is trying to educate and you are spreading misinformation the rules are "dont spread misinformation" then.. that's not censorship.

That's another way of saying you don't believe in free speech. Not going to get into it with you as you have bought into the "misinformation" bullshit as an excuse to ban people. But just know that one day this can and will be used against you and you don't want to live in that world.

[Freemints30]

Wow. Okay dude.

Okay that's not free speak sorry but free speech is like you can say something and not get thrown in prison for it.

Not you can say something and not experience social consequences. Like people thinking your gross or not worth being around. If youtube has a rule that says dont promote false covid facts or inciting racial hatred. That's thier private rule. They just aren't throwing you to the gullages they have every right to boot you off as a private company. Same with tapas.

Unless I can assume you belive in alot of bs facts from youtubers. Which I'll say you do you.

I know it will on day happen simply cus I like gross slimy fictional shit. And seeing what happened with certain queer friendly content creators (I'm sure some here already know a few names especially this year). Might as well advertise my fiction to people who love the sadz. But hey I ain't gonna be advertising myself a crappy teacher and teach misinform like Robert here early

[BoomerZ]

Okay that's not free speak sorry but free speech is like you can say something and not get thrown in prison for it.

When the government asks the hosting private company to ban people (which they did), that is no longer a private company but an arm of the government. You really need to look into what the government told (ask is the polite way of saying it, but the government doesn't ask. they tell.) companies like youtube, google, and the like to do. Then get back to me about private companies...

[thepenmonster]

Are you implying YouTube University isn't a good education?

Next you'll be claiming Prager U isn't a real university!

[Freemints30]

Okay.

YouTube isnt an arm of government man. Stop huffing the fumes.

It ain't that deep. Host your crazy weed facts on your private site. Its okay

[NellieVP318]

I don't know what any of this stuff has to do with self-censorship. But I think on a private corporation and government level is a completely different issue to what an individual does with censorship.

If all this is stuff is affecting how people self-censor themselves, maybe people should consider content warnings on their content which I don't think there aren't any harm with that.

[NickRowler]

Are you implying YouTube University isn't a good education?

You would be shocked by the number of people who use random YT videos as a source of legit information. Heck every Lion King vs Kimba article and even professional journals reference some random video which places similar scene side by side yet does not really disclose the context of the scenes. It ended up misinforming a lot of people and creating this weird conspiracy theory.

[TAMAnnoying]

[BoomerZ]

But if a private company does the bidding of the government (which they did), is there seriously any different. If Youtube made their guidelines, it's one thing. If the government calls you up and says you need to do something about this misinformation, that is completely different. This directly affects the comics you all read. The governments of the world want to make some artwork illegal for looking too young. You can debate that all you want whether the pictures represent minors or not. But if the government comes in and tells your hosting platform to take that all down that's censorship. There is no difference in the outcome.

Everyone is so for freedom of art and expression unless you disagree with it. You don't need laws to protect stuff you agree with. It's the stuff you disagree with. In the context of self censorship this has a chilling affect to make creators second think everything they do. "Is this going to hurt some person that can make my life miserable." It's why we have made up jobs like sensitivity readers. That's just you paying some one to censor you. don't do it. Just write your story and entertain. That is our jobs.

[Freemints30]

Sensitivity readers are paid censorship is a wild take but alright. Cus like that's not censorship. You can listen to them or or chose not too. You are not going to jail.

Quick question who are those youtubers tha were so oppressively banned?

You hadn't answered my questions on which youtubers you were referring to.

The one who voted against gay marriage in Australia cus of feminism

Or the one who brought a nazi on his pod cast and said he made some good points on why black people have lower IQ.

Or the one with his crazy religious cult.

Which ones? Theres a big list

That isn't illegal but I can see why a private host would not want that.

Just saying.

Personally fiction is diffrent but once again people not bring happy with it isnt censorship.

[Jenny-Toons]

[Jenny-Toons]

Alright, I'm gonna do a speed run, since I've come back to the forums since Friday annnnd...there's several flags for this thread. I'll be real -- not gonna read all of this. Most of you are adults, and I'd like to believe you'll behave like adults to what I'm about to say.

Here we go:

To the users who have several different conversations unrelated to the OP post:
Make new threads. You can even reference threads related to your topic if you want to add context.

To the users bringing up off-topic examples that lead to these different conversations:
Before typing anything -- REREAD the OP post. Ask questions for clarity if you need to. This is how you create dumpster fires and CAUSE the different conversations in the first place.

General Announcement:
You can mute threads. If you feel something is off-topic and you no longer want to see it or are NOT engaging in the act of trying to bring something back to topic, mute the thread. Do not keep adding flags to the topic.

If OP wants to request the thread be reopened, they can. If they want to remake a new thread, they can (just lemme know and I'll hide this one).

Everyone else -- it's a Monday. Have a good one. Im'ma go get a coffee.

Jenny