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Jul 2022

This is one of those questions where you answer one way or another and you can go down a slippery slope. Censoring art silences the voice of an artist. When would it be appropriate to silence someone? Hate crimes and bigotry are issues that shouldn't be encouraged. Yet if you silence hate crimes and bigotry, those who use art to speak against it could be silenced for their portrayals of how evil hate crimes are.

Art can be controversial and make an impact in society. Art can challenge people and their beliefs. It can be used to uplift and to harm. Who decides if it is uplifting or harmful?

In 2017 in Little Rock, Arkansas, USA, there was a protest of a 2015 policy that allowed for a monument of the 10 commandments. The Satanic Temple brought in a statue of Baphomet to protest the state government allowing for the 10 commandments be placed at the state capital.

If evangelicals wanted to have their ten commandments on a state monument, the Satanists said that they too can provide a monument that represents them. No matter what your personal religious beliefs are you can't have only one side represented and silence the other. Allow both or remove both, that is really the fair option. So do you silence the artists who made both monuments or accept that both belong?

In the southern states in America there is controversy over monuments and statues of people who supported and fought for slavery. Protestors have forcefully removed some. Some cities and states are leaving these symbols of slavery and oppression up, and others are removing them and putting them in like a museum.

I feel that there is a place for these confederate monuments. No they shouldn't be celebrated or treated like heroes. However we need to remember our past and hope we learn from it. So these monuments should be kept some place safe away in like a museum.

All in all I feel that we should accept that there is art that we may or may not like or approve of. Censoring Art is not good.

Just going to throw this out there to the people that in this thread said they support free speech but not hate speech. You don't support free speech. Speech you agree with doesn't need protecting, the stuff that is disagreeable does. And before anyone uses the "what if you threaten some one or call for the death of someone" example. That is a call to action, that is assault. That is covered by the law already. That is why nazi, black panthers and the like can have parades, their freedom of speech is absolute just like yours. (this is an american thing. no country other than america has this absolute)

Hate speech isn't "stuff you disagree with".

This statement.
People should not have to tolerate people who are intolerant. This isn't Merry Christmas vs Happy Holiday disagreement, it's people who speak ill of social minorities because they don't want those people to have rights or even exist.

Nazis are not good people at all, that is not a difference of opinion. Why should people tolerate them if their whole platform is hating everyone.

In other words "free speech for speech I agree with". That's a slippery slope you are living on...

We associate the word 'art' with positive connotations and 'censorship' with negative ones, so I feel like a lot of us have the instinctive reaction of 'no, art should never be censored!' that we wouldn't otherwise have if it were phrased differently ^^; But yeah, it depends on what you count as 'censorship' - and I don't believe art (however you define it) should be given special treatment above any other forms of information.

I'm pro content warnings, like most people who commented this far. Some people say content warnings is censorship and bad for free speech, but I think content warnings can save free speech. We can apply content warnings liberally with little to no consequence if we go overboard and mislabel something (we can just unlabel it) - the same cannot be said if we destroy content that didn't need to be destroyed. If we label potentially harmful content clearly with the ways they might be harmful, then we don't need to destroy the content or prevent it from being created. It will protect information from being lost.

I'm generally against destroying content. I said somewhere else that I think all content should be allowed to exist, even if some of it should be buried under a mountain of content warnings, but on second thought I think there are some exceptions. If the content was created by harming real people, I think it should be destroyed if the victim(s) request it.

cw: pedophilia, CP

I'm against preventing people from or attacking people for creating content, as long as they're not doing something else that's harmful even if they weren't creating content. Exploitative photographs of real children should never be tolerated, even if it's just, say, from a nudist colony. If you want to make art of nude children, draw them yourself and make sure it doesn't resemble any real child you've seen.

Illustrated/simulated CP depends on what the science says about whether or not it makes pedophiles more likely to offend. I disagree with antis that say it shouldn't be allowed and anyone who makes/consumes it needs to kill themselves and it doesn't matter if they never hurt real children because it's still gross. But I also think people who say 'illustrated CP is okay because real children weren't hurt from making it' are being a bit irresponsible; we're just not sure what effects it has on people. Everyone's just shouting 'it causes CSA' and 'it prevents CSA' and I feel like both sides have an agenda. What does the science actually say? We need to study this WAAAAY more.

And by the way, 'pedophiles pushing the victim narrative for acceptance' is mostly about non-offending pedophiles who never want to hurt a minor (or put books featuring CSA into school libraries) trying to tell people they're not monsters because bad thoughts go through their heads. Even if you disregard the 'victim narrative' (honestly though, how would you feel if you were stuck with an attraction that's never okay to act on?), acceptance of them would allow more of them to come out to and let researchers and scientists study them, which will allow us to lean more about pedophilia. If protecting children is more important to you than hating on bad people, then you should support this.

Curation/what people allow in the spaces they control is a bit muddier, in a world where everything is owned by someone. In my ideal world, everyone will have a small space they have complete control over, where they can banish anyone for doing anything they find objectionable for any reason, where they can feel secure. And the rest of the world will be owned by no-one and anyone can say anything (provided they warn others of what they're about to say beforehand if it's something that could hurt people). But when all our public spaces are owned privately, 'their platform their rules' can very much end up being suppressive in practice.

For instance, I think nazis etc can have parades as long as they are surrounded by people holding signs that say something like (CW: nazism, antisemitism, homophobia, [whatever else nazis yell about at their parades idk I've never watched one]). Which I think by itself will eliminate harm caused by nazi parades just as effectively as outright banning them, because who's going to take them seriously with that preamble?

Anti-censorship for pretty much any art, I couldn't care less what kind of fictional stuff people make because it's such a grey area, and I'm not a mental health professional having direct sessions with that person to determine their mental state. It's absolutely none of my business what anyone draws and writes about. I've also already wrote a good chunk on my thoughts revolving around more transgressive fiction. On the other hand sexual and violent stuff involving real people (Referential drawings and photography) who are not consenting, children always being non-consenting, I'm on the fence about. Yeah, it's actual exploitation material and shouldn't exist, but it's existence can also be used as evidence to help convict the crimes being committed. People don't realize that if you dogpile a piece of legit dangerous content into obscurity you make it harder to catch the criminal, which makes an already difficult thing to get the pigs/cops to care about even harder, allowing the person to continue their crap in a more hidden location.

Again, I don't want that stuff to exist, it's terrible and disgusting! But policing it by just now allowing it to be shown won't help the bigger issue, people like that always find ways to distribute their stuff in that case.

Well, one might ask what, exactly, does your question mean by "censored". Often the word means something as common as preventing small children from viewing material they cannot deal with. Or it can be as extreme as book burnings and jail time for the artist. Each person answering your question has their own idea of what they think you're asking & what they think others are answering, but they may be wrong.

here's no broad "should" or "should not" for art censorship. You need to look at specific cases-- it's an issue of artistic meaning, context, institutional power, and platform. I work in the Museum field and the conversation surrounding how monuments of racist leaders were being vandalized by protesters in the US a few years ago really highlighted the complexity of "censorship."

In my opinion these vandalized monuments would, ideally, be removed from public spaces and re-contextualize within museums with the vandalism and protest as a part of its new meaning. I wanted this to happen because as public monuments to racists, these artworks empowers White Supremacists while at the same time disempowers marginalized people. If taking the statue away from a public place and/or recontextualizing an art piece is "censorship" then I am pro-censorship in this case.

Which leads to a more important point-- censorship is also often an issue of platform/ space. Unlike some people who saw the irreparable damages done to these statues as another form of "censorship." I am ok with their vandalism because 1) these monuments belong to dominant history; U.S institutions have given the stories behind these monuments so much platform tat their destructions do little to erase their story. Eeryone knows who Columbus is; tearing down his statues won't change that. 2) These monuments take up space that could belong to other stories that were "censored" by virtue of being left out of histories. People were up in arms about how protesters were destroying the "histories" represented by these monuments, but they never considered that these protesters' histories weren't represented by any monuments. Their act of vandalism is an act of monument-building in itself.

To be straight forward, these monuments were given their platform by a bunch of powerful White men a long time ago to forward a White Supremacist agenda. These men also actively deplatform stories of any marginalized groups, which in itself is an act of censorship. When talking about censorship, it's important to consider what power gives the art platform, what has already been platformed, and what has already been censored.

I do not want art to be censored, and recognize the problem with allowing one side and silencing the other. You said that speech you agree with doesn't need protecting. That is untrue. Minorities and victims are voices often silenced and it is their voice that needs to be protected.

When it comes to not tolerating the intolerant, that is meaning to speaking up against hate speech which is used to silence and harm victims and minorities. No it is not being hypocritical to stand up against intolerance. It would be hypocritical to NOT stand up for what you believe and for equal rights of all.

As to how this relates to the censorship of art. Art is a reflection of the artist and the artist's audience. As much as I do not want art that glorifies the demeaning of humans, I also know that there is a reason to allow this hate.

Trying to silence and hide artists who are Nazi's or white supremists or bigots or homophobes, is not a solution. It is the same as looking away or pretending that it doesn't exists. In order for someone to believe that there is a real threat, you need to know what the threat is.

This doesn't mean to parade hate speech for all to see. Anarchy isn't an viable solution. It means you can boycott and protest the art that is encouraging hate.

Complicated, but good questions. :slight_smile:
To answer them in short:
Yes, some art should be forbidden, quickest examples: porn of kids, art where it is known that the model(s)/artist(s) were abused/forced to do it, where art is directly calling for violence/killings/etc. Things alike should be not tolerated and forbidden by law, in my opinion.

Regarding censorship. It depends on the target audience, art accessibility and FYI trigger warning about the content.
If the art is meant for adults and it can be accessed by adults only - no censorship is required (only FYI trigger warnings required so that people could make an educated decision whether to click or not). If the art is meant for underage kids, ideally it shouldn't have any trigger content (or in exceptional cases - very light, marked with warnings before entering/viewing).

If the art is meant for both kids and adults and the art does contain trigger content - it must at the very least contain very clear trigger warnings, recommendations not to read for underage kids and why. The particular site could forbid the underage kids to read the trigger content (e.g. by utilizing the age info from profile form), or enforce 2 versions of the art (one accessible by kids only and censored, the other version uncensored for adults only).

In short: as long as the content is not meant for kids, the art should not be censored, but entail trigger warnings where applicable.

The owners of the site decide on the rules for content on their site, of course.
That being said, if the site/art is meant for adult content (and has clear trigger warnings), it should not be hunted down for containing NSFW art for the sole reason that 'kids could find it'. The kids (and everybody else) take responsibility for their actions the second they choose to disregard the warnings and proceed to click to the adult/trigger content.

Absolutely, but the point is their voices are often silenced because it's speech that some people don't agree with. So prioritizing protecting the voices you don't agree with, as a general rule instilled in all people, is what protects minorities and victims' voices :]

But yeah, the solution isn't to ban hateful stuff (unless it directly calls for harm which is apparently already covered by other laws). Let the hateful stuff exist, but point to it and say 'this is harmful in X Y Z ways, do not look at it if you are vulnerable to X Y Z' :]

EDIT:

I know you're not - I am :] To combat our biases, I think it's necessary to actively prioritise the ideas we disagree with; if we think we're treating them 'equally', chances are we're actually favouring the ones we agree with. “When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression" - this is the generalization of that idea.

I wasn't saying one be prioritized over the others. And yes Protest boycott and make it clear that hate isn't tolerated.

There is a huge difference between making art and harming others using art as an excuse.

This is an example of the latter. This is not art, this is abuse and child exploitation.

That's kinda where discussions can get "interesting" - some people assert that no one has the right or authority to designate anything as art or not-art except the artists themselves. But there are some things, like this, that pretty much everyone feels should be recognized by the public as not-art. So, how does society decide what is "unquestionable art" and "unacceptable art", and who gets to do the deciding? Don't feel obligated to answer, I intend that to be a rhetorical question & it's really a different issue than the one raised in this thread.

As a matter of fact, I don't support unrestricted free speech, precisely because of this. You do understand that there is no legal definition of hate speech in the United States, yes? I don't think I need to explain the danger of having something so unbelievably vague left up to the supreme court to decide on when, "I hate potatoes" can be just as easily lumped together with, "I hate this minority group."

"So when you have a site like Tapas or Webtoons that doesn't want sexual acts on it, that is their right to not have it."

This is not even the same class of censorship. Freedom of speech laws don't restrict private institutions from restricting what content they allow on their platform. The exact wording of the 1st amendment explicitly states CONGRESS may not restrict it. It only protects you from legal trouble. You still are not protected from freedom of societal consequences. You can still lose your job or get your ass kicked over something you say. It would be foolish for someone to think that because the government cant arrest them that they can say whatever they want with no consequence.

"In other words "free speech for speech I agree with". That's a slippery slope you are living on..."

This is not the win you think it is.

I think the easiest solution is to just not put 'art' on a pedestal. Something can be art, abuse and child exploitation ALL AT THE SAME TIME. It's still wrong - calling it art or not-art won't really make a difference.

It's also related to the tendency to dismiss something as having 'no artistic merit' (i.e. not worth studying, analysing or paying attention to) because its creator was a terrible person. If something was a product of abuse and exploitation, we should destroy it, but don't insist that 'nothing of value was lost' and shame anyone who mourns the loss of any insights the work may have contained (as long as they're respectful to the victims and agree that destroying the work was a regrettable but necessary course of action). Saying that something had interesting artistic insights is not the same as defending it morally, but it can be hard to see if you think 'art => good' (and therefore 'bad => not art', and in turn 'claim is art => claim is good')

Also, not putting art on a pedestal means people don't get to use art as an excuse to do terrible things. It's only an excuse if people excuse them for it!

ok freedom of speech does apply to some private companies if they have certain dealing with the government. And I don't want anyone deciding what "hate speech" is. Because what hate is to one is just vulgar to another, and to others is a non-issue. You don't want the government deciding that, or society for that matter. and 51% of the population forcing 49% to do something is horrid. Worst is a vocal 10% that knows how to ruin your life.