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Sep 2018

Well looks like this topic upset a bunch of people even though I never intended it to. I just don’t understand how some people could enjoy some of these novels. For me, they are more like a task rather than a pleasure to read.

Hopefully this hasn’t negatively affected your opinions on me or my work. I look forward to writing something that suits my taste (and maybe yours as well) in the future.

Feel free to promote your novels. I’ll check them out. Maybe this way I can find a good read.

Have a nice day!

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    Sep '18
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    Feb '19
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The plot hands down. All that fancy language messes with my head. Without plot, a story is not a story. Without a good plot, a story is just another story.

But what’s the point of reading a good plot it’s not enjoyable to read! It’s like reading a good comic with absolutely horrible art. It doesn’t feel good:/

Both are important, really. But keep in mind that english is not the first language of a lot of creators here...
I'll take myself (minerrale, the writer of this duo) as an example.
I'm french. I write a novel on Tapas, in french. I use a lot of fancy words, big vocabulary, descriptive style, synonyms etc. I focus on both the style and the plot, and aim for a long novel, where I can develop the plot to its fullest while letting my style flow and flower around it.
I also write in english. It is not a language I'm as comfortable with, so I go for a simpler vocabulary for the sake of being certain I'm actually saying what I want to say. The plot also has to be more simple, since I can't formulate it as well as if I was writing in french, you see?
I'm doing my best to improve, but it still is something to consider when I write...

Something easy to understand.

My English vocab is not very large. There is nothing worse than having to goggle every other fuking word so I know what the shit is going on. It's as immersion breaking as you can possibly get.

This even worse when the author is using words that don't mean what they think they mean.

I'd say it depends.
I mean, I don't need a biographical/documentary book with very posh and eloquent words, but I still greatly enjoy it when writers describe a situation as if they're an infatuated poet. The middle ground for me (language-wise) is for the writer to be able to vividly and effectively explain a situation without making it too sound too pretentious.

Large words and complicated jargons can also add bulk to your writing, and a lot people loathe reading just chunks of not-really-necessary text, so writers should keep that in mind too. Personally, I only go full-on Shakespeare when it's a very dramatic scene, like a character expressing their love, or undergoing an episode of panic attack.

Plot of course. A story written in simple language can be more impactful than you think. And I mean, reader experience is also affected by the story. I think word choices and fancy sentence structures might actually get in the way of things. It’s the CONTENT that’s important.

Works written in the 1700s are an actual PAIN to read. Everything is extremely intricate and decorative, and often times you don’t actially understand what message the writer is trying to get across until the very end. It’s exhausting.

And while the quality of novels is determined by both the plot and the language, I think I’d rather read a meaningful children’s book than some fancy shmancy gibberish with no substance.
It also doesn’t really make sense to separate “intriguing” from “easy to read.” You can have booooth!

What do you mean by "reading experience?" Like, that feels very subjective! It's hard to ponder "which is more important, plot or reading experience" when I can't be sure we all mean the same thing when we say "reading experience!"

What makes a reading experience bad? Like, you talk about liking pretty and fanciful language, but pretty and fanciful language can fall into purple prose and "her sapphire orbs gazed downward" if you overdo it. So if reading experience refers to that sort of thing, it's easy to see how it can be bad sometimes. Or does overwrought prose also fall into "bad reading experience?"

And someone can value "a good experience" and be coming at it from the exact opposite angle you are -- the idea that a fancy, poetic, complex story is nice and all, but sometimes you just want to sit down and read something tropey and simple and fun. The fanfic staple of "And there was only one bed!" is by no means a deep and intriguing plot, but it might be a good time regardless! So you could argue that a simple, tropey story is one that values "reading experience" over plot.


To answer the actual question, I think a story can have a solid concept, but if that concept is conveyed poorly then it doesn't matter how interesting it is. Like, you can see this happen in real life --- most people know someone who could have the most interesting thing happen to him and yet when he tells the story at parties it's somehow boring and tedious or hard to follow. And then there's the one other friend who could have the most mundane story about That One Time She Was Cracking Eggs And One Of Them Broke and yet the way she tells it draws a crowd every time.

But I don't think that's about fanciful or poetic words -- telling a story well is about things like clarity and foreshadowing and pacing and set-up and tension and resolution. Whether you choose to use simple language or poetic language isn't a matter of valuing plot over prettiness -- that's just a stylistic preference.


Ultimately, if you get me a gift, the content is most important. If you wrap it in simple brown paper it looks nice! If you wrap it all fancy with a hand-tied bow that's also nice!! If you wrap it kind of incompetently or wrap it in newspaper that looks less nice, but it does the job and the content might still be good. But if the paper it's wrapped in is soaked in blood or smells strongly of fish or was previously used to housetrain your dog, that will absolutely make it hard for me to appreciate the gift inside. The fact that the wrapping is capable of ruining the gift doesn't mean the wrapping is the most important part.

What are you writing a riddle? What's the point of having a plot if only a few people know what you're saying. This is the reason why i look up the plot to novels on wiki.

I'm
rather confused on this. Do you know what purple prose is? It's when you spend too much time overdescribing the setting and characters by writing in an extravagant manner that your story loses its flow. Readers may forget where they were, or skim over your sentences because they're drawing out the scene too much. It's like info-dumping, but with prose.

These two factors go hand-in-hand. A book should balance its prose and descriptions so they can guide their readers to imagining the story without getting overwhelmed by PP. Likewise, it's important for the writer to have a handle on their story and plot line as well. Inconsistencies happen, but they can be fixed with revisions.

Your question makes it seem like you can't get a book with a balance of description and coherent plot, when you can.

You not being into a book is completely subjective. Chances are it's just not your taste.

I think it all comes down to personal preference.

Honestly a good plot is key, but I'd take a story with a simple, overdone plot that's beautifully written any day. When someone with simple language writes a good plot and it becomes popular, that may just be because the target audience loves stuff like that.

Now, I'm rather partial to things like purple prose myself, I honestly enjoy reading things with really flowery language, but when it's appropriate. But I like good plots, too. Like I said, personal preference!

TL;DR: Sounds like the majority of novels on here just aren't your cup of tea, but that don't mean they ain't someone elses :blush:

EDIT: Also wondering if you could PM me which stories you were looking into? I'm curious, since you went as far as to make a forums post on the subject. No obligation to share, though ^^

All right folks, I've had enough.
Want some good writing AND some good plot? Here, have some.




Ain't happy yet, despite the difference in writing and plot? Then maybe you should try premium content, because these are some of the best I could find on here :wink:

Eh, I always just think that the writing should suit the story and vice versa. It's obvious a story should be enjoyable to read, but there has to be something beneath the words too, or whats the point? Part of the "reading experience" has to come from reading a compelling story. Perhaps for me "plot vs reading experience" is just to simple, because it leaves out the actual content which for me is a pretty important factor?

A good story is the sum of it's parts. Plot and reading experience are just two parts.

Reading experience and plot are both very important to a story and each has their own function.
Reading experience is never an objective thing. Someone could find a story overflowing with "fanciful" language as a poor reading experience and then someone else can think the exact opposite. I could fill my stories with fanciful language, overflowing with words just for the sake of it or I think it's pretty, but most people won't want to read it. You're telling a story, sometimes a long one, the plot is important you need to move it forward, you need to make sure your readers are engaged and understand what's going on.
Then again there are a lot of good stories that people out there like to read that use "complex" "fanciful" words (what's complex and fanciful is different for every reader).
Knowing your audience is important. There's a general trend of people liking a good plot told in a simplistic but engaging fashion (at least that's what I've seen).
Also, words are just words if there's no meaning behind it (it's why poetry is so powerful those pretty words have a meaning) the same needs to be applied in a story, whether it's simple or complex or there's no point.

I read for the plot. I've read a lot of literature back in my university days filled to the brim with symbolism, allusions, artistic formatting, and grandiose vocabulary, and it wasn't the BEST experience.

I can read Paradise Lost because the PLOT is good, despite the elevated language.

I can read the Epic of Gilgamesh because I'm in it for the adventure of the King and his Friend, and gloss over all the poetry inside. I loved The Count of Monte Cristco, because even though the words were hard to understand, the carefully planned, decades-long revenge of Edmond Dantes was too amazing for me to stop.

If I had to read something with grandiose language, but the plot is not engaging enough, I would give up and put my dictionary away.

I'm also willing to put up with simple writing with only a drop or two of dramatic irony because the conflict is what's engaging me, even if it's a fight described in simple words and direct attack names.

I'm used to reading translated novels where the translator does not have English as their first language, and the writing is very awkward or jarring due to the grammar of the original language.

So plot matters to me. I need my multi-factional conflicts, hidden power levels, exploration, and face-slapping goodness.

i think a good plot is kinda integral to a good reading experience for me - if theres nothing to something, no matter how pretty, is it well written?

and by good plot, i dont mean really interesting concept and story - i mean well executed plot and structure. i want the story to drag me somewhere by the nosehairs. thats a good reading experience in my book.

unique concept is kinda whatever - its a really good thing to have, but only worth something if you can wield it right. a by the books boy meets girl blah story can still be enjoyable if skilfully executed - although most are just passable.

i think simplistic prose can do fine if it fits the book - i recently read do androids dream of electric sheep, which is written in this very straightforward, matter of fact, deeply male prose style that normally id hate, but it does work with the book (which i really enjoyed and whizzed through.) (it was deeply male bc he kept describing womens tits despite it being irrelevant - not as bad as neil gaiman though, that man loves referencing front bottoms and i hate him for it). sometimes it serves a work to be unassuming or minimalist, sometimes it suits it to be more stylised - but keep away from purple prose. its just amateur.

but yeah, prose style should serve the work - its really just a surface aesthetic, whats really pulling the reader in is the story and structure

I’m all for the content more than everything else. I refuse to read something that’s only oozing in pretentiousness.

Then... find novels you like? Saying that "typical, modern novels" represent something wrong with society is pretty damn disrespectful, and exaggerated.

People disagreeing with you doesn't necessarily mean they're upset. I wasn't upset, and I don't think I used any language to suggest I was. (I am aware you aren't specifically talking about me, its just easy to use myself as an example)

Did they say that? They changed the original post so I have no way of double checking, but I don't remember anything that inflammatory being said?

They edited their first post to add it and other er, clarifications, but now that's all gone too.