T/F: 'Fantasy *should* focus on medieval settings'

[DokiDokiTsuna]

To clarify, I believe the OP meant that it's somehow fitting or 'correct' that the stereotypical fantasy story takes place in the middle ages: y'know, swords and sorcery, kings and emperors; riding on horseback over hill and dale...that kind of scene.

As the #1 fan of science-fantasy, my answer is a loud and clear False. ^^; I have a devil's advocate argument for this statement, though...but first, let's take a vote:

• True
• False

Show results

So I'm pretty sure their argument was that this particular time period featured both the rapid development of what would become modern civilization, and a population that still commonly believed in magic IRL-- making it a perfect fit for the fantasy genre.

And to play devil's advocate, I would add that it was also a time with immense emphasis on learning a trade-- usually the only way out of a life of menial drudgery was to be born into the upper class, marry into the upper class...or master a complex skill that people would be willing to pay you to perform. The right apprenticeship could literally change your life...I'm sure you're already getting fantasy vibes just from reading this description. ^^
The idea of a young hero gaining access to a rare talent and using it to expand their experience of the world is a staple of fantasy fiction, and I believe it's a reflection of how life was back then. Whether your talent was intellectual, physical, or emotional, if you could hone that skill and become famous for it, you might gain the opportunity to see and do things that, normally, you would never be allowed to do.

The reason why I say False, and why I love fantasy set in the present, the distant future, and on totally alien worlds, is because I think those limitations can exist anywhere.
Societal barriers requiring you to have special graces or skills to advance to greater opportunities still exist even now-- that concept hasn't gone away, despite capitalism's best efforts to make us believe it has. ^^;

And although 'learning a trade' is now just considered Plan B if you can't go to college like a 'normal' person, I think there's still magic in gaining a specialized skill, and people will see it immediately if you call their attention to it. Just thinking about how my fellow scientists react when I say I'm an artist, or how my fellow artists react when I say I'm a scientist-- it's clear to me that people are still mystified by rare skills, even just slightly rare ones.
I think the only difference is, these days you're expected to assimilate completely into the community of whatever singular skill you do have, becoming one of a faceless collective drawn on by society at large. Like, we don't think in terms of a 'town scientist' or a 'village artist' that we approach for expertise; we think of 'scientists' and 'artists' who exist somewhere in the background of our lives, only very rarely interacting with 'normal' people. I guess that speaks to just how much bigger the world has gotten. ^^;

And personally, I think, in an age where technology continually advances towards walled-gardens (i.e. tech that is 'opaque', discouraging users from knowing anything about how it works or how it can be modified) and becomes more prevalent in all areas of life, new conventions of fantasy may form around it, seeing 'magic' in people who can break down those walls and actually manipulate the paradigms we live in.
Basically, I think hackers are cool in the exact same way wizards are cool, and if my predictions come true and other people start to share that viewpoint, science-fantasy will probably become just as popular as traditional fantasy someday.

[cherrystark]

I think that writers who "default" to basic worldbuilding tropes for both sci-fi and fantasy stories without a rock-solid way to undermine the tropes are inherently lazy.

I did a thread a long time ago about technology in fantasy novels. I noticed that a lot of writers tend to enjoy the worldbuilding over the actual plot. So medieval fantasy gives writers a pretty bare bones canvas to craft their world. While I don't think there is anything inherently "bad" with enjoying elaborate worldbuilding, there's a certain lack of courage to it. I've read some really great fantasy that takes place in different eras and it's generally more fun to read than medieval stuff.

[NickRowler]

Growing up, I didn't really like historical fantasy until I read Inuyasha. And I think I realized it wasn't really the fantasy aspect but whole European medieval setting. I guess I don't really find knights, wizards, princesses, dragons, goblins, etc. that interesting. There are so many other cultures and time periods people could work with.

I guess the counter argument is that some people really love LOTR and DnD, so that is what they like writing. It's just not my cup of tea.

[Lensing]

When I hear "fantasy story" I think of a medieval setting with fantasy elements.
I wouldn´t say fantasy "should" focus on medieval settings but that´s what I think
when I hear someone promotes a story set in a fantasy world.

I´m not a fantasy story expert, I read some when I was young

[ThunderChicken]

While many of the popular fantasy stories are Middle Ages themed (think Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones) there are some huge examples of fantasy in other settings. Probably the most famous of all of them, and set right here on present day Earth, is Harry Potter. Witches & wizards, giants, trolls, elves, goblins, unicorns, Hippogriffs, and of course magic - the HP stories are most definitely fantasy, even if Harry and Ron rode in a Ford Anglia rather than on horseback.

Superhero stories are also fantasy. So are science fiction stories. A fantasy story is any story that requires you to suspend your beliefs about what is actually possible (or known to be possible). Whether it be Sith Lords or Romulans, Super men or Iron men, dragons or space ships, alien beings or dwarves in mountains, past, present, or future, it is all fantasy.

[KevinReijnders]

I think the very fact that "urban fantasy" is an established subgenre of fantasy as a whole says more than enough.

[Oriflamme]

I’m pretty sure most medieval fantasy isn’t even medieval. People tend to underestimate how different medieval society is from our own and create modern society that happens to use swords and arrows.

[NickRowler]

I’m pretty sure most medieval fantasy isn’t even medieval. People tend to underestimate how different medieval society is from our own and create modern society that happens to use swords and arrows.

I noticed that with the Zelda franchise where they would randomly have stuff like minecarts or trains or even telephones.

[kyupol]

My fantasy... Isn't set in the medieval ages I guarantee you that...

[cherrystark]

It's not. The pseudo-medieval European fantasy realm is just an easy backdrop to put whatever storyline you want on it.

[Tubacabra]

Something I've noticed is that a lot of authors who claim to be using a medieval setting usually end up with more of a Renaissance feel to them, either due to a lack of research or just a misunderstanding of the difference between medieval and Renaissance.

[KevinReijnders]

The issue there is also that the Middle Ages is a time period of a thousand years. It's a highly dynamic period that varies depending on the specific point you focus on.

[SpectreFirst]

Looks like it was already already mentioned in this topic, but I want to reiterate that you've missed the point of what fantasy in general actually is. For example, both regular Warhammer and Warhammer 40K are both fantasy and the only difference is that regular Warhammer is set in medieval setting while 40K is exactly the same thing but with guns and spaceships so fantasy is never limited by setting, the key element here is that fantasy means creating a custom world with custom logic that fits your needs.
Second most important thing is that fantasy is not just about one poor schmuck who learns how to fart out fireballs, it’s about exploration of the unknown and this is why medieval setting is prevalent because it provides a lot more opportunities for exploration compared to “modern” setting where everything is already explored and mapped but it still can be a simple dungeon or a new uncharted planet.
Third most important aspect is variety and freedom - in fantasy you can create custom logic, monsters and technologies, construct different events with action and exploration elements and utilize them in many different ways, realistic settings are more grounded so there are more limitations to what you can do and what you can’t.

So bottom line is that fantasy is about creating your own custom assets and fitting them for your needs, it’s about action, exploration of the unknown and expanding life experience by doing things you can’t do in real life; it doesn’t matter how “truly medieval” your medieval fantasy actually is, it doesn’t matter if you use spaceships or dragons and it doesn’t even matter if your character can hit a brick wall head-first and survive as long as your world logic is solid and doesn’t contradict itself, your action and pacing is dynamic and your story is interesting.

And I refuse to consider “urban fantasy” as fantasy simply because it’s usually based in quasi-real world with mostly realistic logic but with some random fantasy element just thrown into it without any plausible explanation which in most cases completely breaks the logic of the world, not to mention that most of the time “urban fantasy” is just another high school teenage wangst with someone randomly farting out a fireball once in a while.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

but I want to reiterate that you've missed the point of what fantasy in general actually is.

I'm not 100% how much of this was directed at me, but I figured I'd try to answer anyway:

So personally, I said the journey of apprenticeship and 'learning a trade' was a STAPLE of fantasy fiction, not that it was the actual definition. It's just a common story structure, enough to be stereotypical of the genre, just like the medieval setting-- that's what's being discussed here. At least, that's what the OP was discussing: the fitness of that stereotype; whether or not it 'deserves' to be stereotypical, if that makes sense. It's a bit of an odd argument, but that's why I wanted to bring it here. ^^;

Secondly:

And I refuse to consider “urban fantasy” as fantasy simply because it’s usually based in quasi-real world with mostly realistic logic but with some random fantasy element just thrown into it without any plausible explanation which in most cases completely breaks the logic of the world,

I've never liked arguments like this; they just feel mean-spirited for no reason. But more importantly, they imply that a whole genre should be considered invalid because somehow you can't imagine any way a writer could possibly use it well. Sounds like a skill issue to me

For one thing, I think logic-breaking elements are quite common in ALL fantasy, just like they are in sci fi...that's why 'suspension of disbelief' exists. As a biological scientist, I notice a lot of issues that other fans don't, but I don't mind as long as I can tell what the writer was going for. And I'm sure other fans notice issues that I don't...the most important thing is the reason why the fantasy element exists, and whether it uplifts the story or not. If a world where everyone gets a dragon for a graduation present when they leave high school uplifts the story, more power to it.

And for another thing, not all urban fantasy is ^that. I think I write a lot of urban fantasy, not to throw random fantasy elements into a realistic world, but to do the opposite: to work realistic elements into a fantasy world. How do you build an economy around the manufacture and trade of demonic computers; how do the police and military operate when they could get attacked by an undead dragon at any time? How do you assign homework to a student in your class who lives in another dimension...?

There are so many creative ways to mix the worlds of reality and fantasy; to write it all off as just lazy YA tropes...I mean, like I said, you have to be ignoring the potential of the genre on purpose, just to get an opportunity to be mean.

[Tubacabra]

Third most important aspect is variety and freedom - in fantasy you can create custom logic, monsters and technologies, construct different events with action and exploration elements and utilize them in many different ways, realistic settings are more grounded so there are more limitations to what you can do and what you can’t

And I refuse to consider “urban fantasy” as fantasy simply because it’s usually based in quasi-real world with mostly realistic logic but with some random fantasy element just thrown into it without any plausible explanation which in most cases completely breaks the logic of the world, not to mention that most of the time “urban fantasy” is just another high school teenage wangst with someone randomly farting out a fireball once in a while.

@SpectreFirst
Um, you kinda contradicted yourself here...
If one of the main points of fantasy is the ability to "create custom logic" as you put, how can it be possible to "break the logic of [your] world"? Your complete dismissal of urban fantasy as a genre is a heinous disregard for the concept of fantasy as you, yourself, described it. It's clear that you've never read The Dresden Files.

[cherrystark]

So bottom line is that fantasy is about creating your own custom assets and fitting them for your needs, it’s about action, exploration of the unknown and expanding life experience by doing things you can’t do in real life; it doesn’t matter how “truly medieval” your medieval fantasy actually is, it doesn’t matter if you use spaceships or dragons and it doesn’t even matter if your character can hit a brick wall head-first and survive as long as your world logic is solid and doesn’t contradict itself, your action and pacing is dynamic and your story is interesting.

You're literally proving my point about fantasy. People opt for a medieval-style setting so they can go crazy with their worldbuilding. There are plenty of examples of fantasies that are based in other times and they work just fine.

[SpectreFirst]

@DokiDokiTsuna

the journey of apprenticeship and 'learning a trade' was a STAPLE of fantasy fiction

Except that it’s not exactly a staple and more of just one of the tropes, I don’t even recall that trope being used much in LoTR, Dragonlance, Witcher, Conan and many other influential works; this trope seems to be abused all the way in fantasy like JRPGS with very young protagonists.

whether or not it 'deserves' to be stereotypical

Simply put, yes it does, because most fantasy in a traditional sense is derived from LoTR so most people assume medieval setting when they hear the word “fantasy” without any prefixes, this is literally what stereotype is.

For one thing, I think logic-breaking elements are quite common in ALL fantasy, just like they are in sci fi...that's why 'suspension of disbelief' exists.

First of all, logic-breaking happens when you introduce a rule and then do something that contradicts it or when you introduce several rules which contradict one another; fantasy elements can easily break realistic logic but cannot break a custom one as long as it doesn’t contradict itself. “Urban fantasy” logic usually contradicts itself when realistic and custom rules are just mashed together without any attempts to make them work together.
Second, suspension of disbelief is when you don’t explicitly explain every single rule and rely on events to look plausible based on rules you did explain and rules people assume by default; in a quasi-realistic setting the default is, well, a real world, so when someone just throws in random elements without even trying to make them work together the whole thing becomes, as you’ve called it, “a skill issue”.

to work realistic elements into a fantasy world

...Which is exactly the opposite of “urban fantasy” because it’s essentially adding realistic elements into a more abstract setting to make it feel more plausible.

@Tubacabra

how can it be possible to "break the logic of [your] world"?

If we are talking about “urban fantasy”, it usually relies on a quasi-real world setting which brings a very strict set of rules and limitations and throwing in random fantasy element should change the whole set completely but in most cases it doesn’t, everything stays exactly the same as in a realistic setting except that one element which creates lots of contradictions where realistic logic clashes with custom logic; you can’t just put a giant flying lizard into a modern setting and expect everything to function exactly as it was without it. Yes, technically you can change the world logic in accordance with the newly introduced element but that will require so many changes it will stop being an “urban fantasy” and will become just a regular fantasy in a quasi-modern setting.
If we are talking about “your world” which implies custom logic, your rules must not contradict each other and you shouldn’t do anything that contradicts these rules. The most notorious example of breaking the logic is a Mary-Sue character which doesn’t follow the established set of rules and\or bends the whole system in its favor.

[cherrystark]

Except that it’s not exactly a staple and more of just one of the tropes

You're also forgetting that there is more to fantasy than just tropes. LoTR for example is a classic example of the Hero's Journey story outline, as is most classical high fantasy stories.

Simply put, yes it does, because most fantasy in a traditional sense is derived from LoTR so most people assume medieval setting when they hear the word “fantasy” without any prefixes, this is literally what stereotype is.

High Fantasy and low fantasy are two very different things. A story doesn't have to be a derivative of LoTR or Wheel of Time to qualify as fantasy.

First of all, logic-breaking happens when you introduce a rule and then do something that contradicts it or when you introduce several rules which contradict one another; fantasy elements can easily break realistic logic but cannot break a custom one as long as it doesn’t contradict itself. “Urban fantasy” logic usually contradicts itself when realistic and custom rules are just mashed together without any attempts to make them work together.Second, suspension of disbelief is when you don’t explicitly explain every single rule and rely on events to look plausible based on rules you did explain and rules people assume by default; in a quasi-realistic setting the default is, well, a real world, so when someone just throws in random elements without even trying to make them work together the whole thing becomes, as you’ve called it, “a skill issue”.

So it's this type of "logic" that makes the entire fantasy umbrella very difficult for newer writers to get into. It comes off as very cold and mean-spirited. Fantasy is anything that goes outside of traditional logic: vampires, werewolves, fairies, magic, time travel, etc. It's all fantasy.

The worldbuilder mindset says that you have to build your world from scratch and have a complicated magic system where you have to explain every rule and barrier. The web gets more twisted when the rules start to contradict each other.

Stepping away from the worldbuilder mindset opens a lot of doors for writers. You can focus more on the story and the crucial worldbuilding elements of the plot rather than giving readers an in-depth breakdown of gnomic economic politics because it gets mentioned once in two chapters.

Urban fantasy works because it literally makes the storytelling process easier. You get the chance to mix science with fantasy and get cool elements. But even from a worldbuilding POV, urban fantasy just means that those magical creatures had to move into human-style housing and adapt to human culture. Technology is used because sending a text message or an IM is 10x easier than explaining why owls are flying around delivering letters. Or having bicycles and public transit available is easier to write about than realistic/logical horse care.

so when someone just throws in random elements without even trying to make them work together the whole thing becomes, as you’ve called it, “a skill issue”.

Couldn't "skill issue" also be the reason why so many newer indie writers opt to writing medieval style fantasy in the first place?

[DokiDokiTsuna]

much in LoTR, Dragonlance, Witcher, Conan and many other influential works; this trope seems to be abused all the way in fantasy like JRPGS with very young protagonists.

Legitimate question: Does the fact that Lord of the Rings doesn't do it mean it can't be called a staple??
Like, you say 'JRPGS' in a hand-wavey way as if they somehow don't count, even though they've been a very popular and influential form of consuming fantasy for...decades at this point. ._. There are definitely many fantasy fans out there who interact with the genre exclusively through JRPGS, or other media directly inspired by them. And that's...still valid. They're not just consuming 'abused tropes'; they're consuming a subgenre of fantasy.

I'm not discounting LotR's influence on our modern perception of the genre...but LotR and its contemporaries are quite old at this point, and fantasy has branched out a lot since then. They shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of any discussions of the genre...

...Which is exactly the opposite of “urban fantasy” because it’s essentially adding realistic elements into a more abstract setting to make it feel more plausible.

Second legitimate question: what would you call it, then? ^^; If there's a more accurate genre descriptor for the kind of stuff I write, I'd love to start using it, but I haven't heard one yet.

To be honest, your description of what I'm supposedly doing doesn't really make sense to me...why would I add realistic elements to 'make it feel more plausible'? It's still very blatantly a fantasy story; the fact that the leader of a country is called a president instead of a king doesn't change the fact that there are literal wizards running around...maybe to you that feels more plausible, but it's the same thing in my eyes.

If I had to explain why I add in realistic elements, it would be because I want to explore the concepts of technological progress and 'modernity' itself within an alternate reality that operates by different rules. Or, to interestingly juxtapose the familiar with the unfamiliar, to create an intriguing setting. Or, to model how our current societal norms are fit or unfit to handle paradigms with higher stakes.
^That's my thought process. I don't really expect my readers to feel like the things I write are at all plausible, and I don't see a need to. =/ That's...not really the point.

[aquashark]

I mean sure a medieval fantasy is fun but i feel its too cliché. I want to see new thing. That's why my action fantasy is set in an ocean setting, a world under water. I want to make stories that steer away from the norm. Fantasy within different worlds or within different types of societies. Things like that.