T/F: 'There's no such thing as bad writing'

Zhengo 2024-10-23 00:54:25 UTC #6

In storytelling terms, I would say bad writing would be if the writer is contradictory with its themes, structural issues with the story, characters that just act as the script dictates, etc.

I think there's lately a bit of pushback on dubbing things as "bad writing" because a crowd of people have started to just call something "bad writing" just because the story contains content they don't like. It kind of feels like these days people have to constantly justify every opinion they have and want an excuse to belittle fans of a work, so they try to turn their subjective opinion into an objective one.

Also, I do feel like sometimes people latch onto calling something as "bad writing" due to a series of nitpicks. I'm actually of the opinion that minor plot inconsistencies are not a big deal for a quality of a story. Of course, you should try to avoid them if you can, but I prefer looking at the bigger picture and how successfully the author has conveyed what they wanted to convey rather than some inconsistencies that are probably due to a bit of forgetfulness. But the nitpick culture kinda did manifest a few years ago with stuff like cinemasins, and I feel like it might make people who want to get into writing become overly nervous and get them stuck in an "outline loop" where they just get stuck in the outline stage trying to make sure they plug up every possible hole in their story. It also ends up with some stories these days having to overexplain certain plot logistics to the reader even when it is obvious from the context.

In that sense, I kind of understand why a youtuber would say this in regards for beginner writers. I think when you're a beginner, you should be diving into things with the mentality of no fear and learn your lessons along the way. I think that getting a beginner stuck in a fear of being "bad" just ends up with them having a hard time getting started.

BreeBaxter 2024-10-23 01:27:18 UTC #7

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runs away giggling while throwing taco emojis

BellaTheCow 2024-10-23 01:38:05 UTC #8

Well I say false only because I’ve observed that it isn’t the story itself that is ever considered “bad” rather it’s the way that it is conveyed (as in perhaps poor grammer or failure to adequately describe the situation or subject of the story ) that might( idk if this is always the case) lead a reader to say that a story is considered “bad”.

Please Note: this is my own opinion and it will change according to any new information I might find out about this subject to be correct. Thank you for your understanding

bulgariansumo 2024-10-23 05:07:33 UTC #9

I feel like what counts as 'bad art' (including writing, music, etc.) depends on if it fulfils what the writer wants it to. The standards for good writing are most lenient when the writer is writing for themselves, and less so when the writer is writing in order to attract an outside audience/sales/etc.

I was going to try to make an argument that there's no such thing as bad writing if you're writing for yourself, but you can still write something you don't like, so... [shrug]

Lensing 2024-10-23 06:04:24 UTC #10

Art is too complex for simple categories.

Try to define the words good / bad and you will find out that
1) not easy 2) doesn´t work as a general category

Tubacabra 2024-10-23 06:11:18 UTC #11

I just looked up the definition of good and this popped up. Not sure if the example sentence was supposed to be ironic, or if they actually thought this was proper English.

(of language) with correct grammar and pronunciation.
"she speaks good English"

DokiDokiTsuna 2024-10-23 12:03:13 UTC #12

I...think this is grammatically correct, though. ^^; It's just informal in a sort of antiquated way...people don't really use 'good' in certain phrases anymore, but it doesn't make it wrong.

Like, if you break it down: "she speaks English" is grammatically correct. So adding an adjective to 'English' shouldn't break the sentence. "She speaks British English", for example, is fine. So "She speaks good English" should also be technically fine.
It feels like 'good' inherently describes the way 'she' speaks, which makes it feel wrong; because you're supposed to say that as "she speaks well". But 'good' is actually the qualifier of 'English', as in 'good English'. To give another example, "she bakes good bread" is also fine.

Maybe someday 'good' will fall further out of favor, and a sentence like that will break convention so hard you could make a case that it's grammatically incorrect. But I don't think we're there just yet.

This is actually a really interesting distinction...so if the way the writer describes the subjects of the story and the situations in the story isn't the 'story itself'...what IS the story itself??

All that's left outside of the telling would be the vague idea behind it...and I think the claim 'there's no such thing as a bad story idea' might actually have some merit. Like, when I say 'anything can work if you make it work'; that's basically the same thing, right?

KevinReijnders 2024-10-23 12:07:43 UTC #13

There's absolutely such a thing as bad writing. Writing, much like any craft, has a set set of techniques that make the writing work. It's as much a technical craft as it is a creative one.

That said, bad writing is the current buzzword for when someone doesn't like a thing and wants to pretend they know what they're talking about.

cherrystark 2024-10-23 14:15:13 UTC #14

Art is subjective so everyone's going to have different definitions of what "good" and "bad" are. Most people tend to accept bad execution as a standing definition of "bad writing".

For example, I'm pretty vocal about my dislike for the first person POV. It's trendy and very overdone. I don't like reading it because the female MCs typically tend to read like spoiled, bratty teenage girl and the male MCs tend to read like women doing fake male voices in my head. It's not fun. I also don't like the trope "enemies to lovers" because writers don't understand the trope. But if I found a well executed first person POV, enemies to lovers novel - I'd read it.

BreeBaxter 2024-10-23 14:37:54 UTC #15

Wow, congrats on perfectly demonstrating your idea of bad writing while describing it. Bravo, truly next level commitment!

(I’m just a little salty because my current novel is literally a first-person POV with a female MC and an enemies-to-lovers storyline... So yeah.)

Lensing 2024-10-23 14:49:41 UTC #16

I only read first person POV novels

NickRowler 2024-10-23 15:11:58 UTC #17

I think there is writing which people call bad and might pick apart to point out every little flaw. Yet there are tons of people who still enjoy it. They don’t care about smaller issues about the writing because maybe there is a larger charm about the it that captures the interest of tons of people.

However, there is writing which is objectively bad. It is not well written and anyone who does enjoy it is more for ironic reasons. I think of things like The Room, Cool Cat, Star Wars Holiday Special, or anything by Neil Breen.

BellaTheCow 2024-10-23 16:04:35 UTC #18

DokiDokiTsuna:

BellaTheCow:

Well I say false only because I’ve observed that it isn’t the story itself that is ever considered “bad” rather it’s the way that it is conveyed (as in perhaps poor grammer or failure to adequately describe the situation or subject of the story ) that might( idk if this is always the case) lead a reader to say that a story is considered “bad”.
This is actually a really interesting distinction...so if the way the writer describes the subjects of the story and the situations in the story isn't the 'story itself'...what IS the story itself??

All that's left outside of the telling would be the vague idea behind it...and I think the claim 'there's no such thing as a bad story idea' might actually have some merit. Like, when I say 'anything can work if you make it work'; that's basically the same thing, right?

The story itself I believe are the actual events and subjects being described and it is the way that it is described that can make a story become considered “bad” or “good”. Therefore that is why I have come to the conclusion thus far that there is no such thing as a bad story idea rather just failure to convey the idea properly.

So, again, not a bad story, just maybe a difficulty on communicating the idea is all that I’ll consider when considering a story “bad” or needing improvement.

Edit:
Of course in the case where the grammar is not correct because the author is new to the English language then all grammar errors are immediately excused in my case because I can only imagine how difficult it must be to write in an entirely different language.

Note: again, this is my opinion and it will change according to what is eventually found to be correct moving forward. Thank you for your understanding.

BellaTheCow 2024-10-23 16:06:27 UTC #19

These are some very interesting points to consider. @NickRowler

BreeBaxter 2024-10-23 16:26:49 UTC #20

@BellaTheCow @DokiDokiTsuna

Okay, okay! So, Bella's like, "The story is The chicken crosses the road and whether it's a gritty thriller or a rom-com about chickens falling in love, it's the same core story—just told differently." Meanwhile, Doki’s over here like, "Hold up! If the telling changes, it’s a completely different story!"

But here's the real kicker: If you two could just agree on what actually counts as "the story", bam, debate over, right?

EXCEPT… by defining the terms, you end up with the exact same problem all over again. Because now you're stuck asking: Wait, is this the same debate, just with new definitions of terms? Or is it a whole new debate with the same old question?!

So, by trying to solve the conundrum, you’ve recreated the same conundrum!!

OH NOOOOOOO! No, no, no, no, noooo!

BellaTheCow 2024-10-23 16:33:54 UTC #21

Omg! I actually didn’t really realize what @DokiDokiTsuna was trying to convey to me. This is an excellent point @DokiDokiTsuna of course it’s true that the context of the story would change if told a different way. My apologies for the misunderstanding and not considering this truth earlier.

Again, my opinion changes with what is found to be correct of this subject as I am still learning much.

@DokiDokiTsuna @BreeBaxter

BellaTheCow 2024-10-23 16:39:19 UTC #22

It’s true the chaos is real. 🤣 @BreeBaxter

cherrystark 2024-10-23 16:42:18 UTC #23

To be fair, that's why I said execution! The "trend" right now is to alternate POV between your leads. As a reader, I've always had trouble with the sudden shifting of voices. The story then gets even more muddied when the writer starts throwing in the POV of random side characters. With enemies-to-lovers, they almost always hate each other because of some over exaggerated misunderstanding or some generic rule like "We have the Capulets because we're Montagues".

The writer could shift their storytelling execution and explore the same story just in a different way. Like imagine a modern day adaptation Romeo and Juliet told from the cast's collected social media posts, private diaries, and videos stored on the cloud. It's still the same story, it's just executed in an interesting way instead of defaulting to a basic execution.

2DLenzy 2024-10-23 16:50:20 UTC #24

Whoa, woah WOAH! That's a summation of my Season 3 XD

BreeBaxter 2024-10-23 17:49:07 UTC #25

Why don’t you give Chapter 1 of my novel Kiss of the Eternal Prince a whirl and see what you think of my quote/unquote 'execution.' I like to keep things... artistically muddy. But, you know, in a totally non-generic, handcrafted way. No basic default mud in my story, thank you very much! I mean, if I’m gonna muddy things up, it’s gonna be artisanal chaos.

@cherrystark