T/F: 'There's no such thing as bad writing'

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I'll admit, my knee-jerk reaction to hearing this statement (especially from a media critic YouTuber...like, what's the point of your job, then) was a resounding 'FALSE' and I stand by that even now.
HOWEVER...I think it's possible to make a legitimate case for it. ^^ I'd like to see if anyone here who does think it's 'True' can come up with something better than the vague 'as long as it feels good to you' reasoning that they offered. So let's take a vote:

• True
• False

Show results

So I do think it's False, but with an asterisk: I think the statement itself is basically a strawman, in context.
'Bad' is such a vague quality (if you take it in a literal sense); it can mean any negative thing that you want it to, especially when applied to art. So in this case, I believe the speaker decided 'bad writing' meant 'writing that doesn't suit everyone's tastes'...which is all writing, and if all writing is bad then none of it is. Leading to the conclusion in the title.

The dissonance comes from the fact that they've spent their literal entire career using 'bad writing' to mean 'unskilled writing that many readers will find confusing, disappointing, or unpleasant due to its blatant disregard for convention'...which is what people usually mean when they say 'bad writing', and is a thing that definitely exists. :T

I assume they suddenly decided to go with the weird definition because a fan was asking how to avoid bad writing, and they wanted to say something that sounded nice and encouraging. But idk; maybe it's just me, but I don't think cute platitudes are as encouraging as an honest answer. Like, they're asking you to use your skills as a critic to help them form writing strategies; there's nothing mean about doing the thing they probably subscribed to you for. Of all the times to suddenly become lenient and ambiguous, the moment a novice writer asks you point-blank what NOT to do is the worst possible time. It really felt like they were just blatantly lying.

If I were to try to answer the question, I think first I would point out how vague it is (there's a billion ways in which writing can be bad, and a billion ways in which those things can be avoided or reworked into good things) and then, I'd tell them to feed their inner critic. To consume lots of criticism, positive and negative, especially about the media they like, and once they feel ready, to start forming their own. If you get yourself to a point where you can give an articulate answer when asked why you think a piece of writing is good or bad, you'll be able to do it for your own writing. You may even be able to do it while you write, weighing your decisions as you introduce them, and predicting how they might affect the rest of the story.

IMO, bad writing tends to be isolated writing. Like, you can hear/read it and immediately clock that the author had no idea how it would sound to anyone living outside of their head. Or outside of their circle of friends, as the case may be...keep yourself open to new perspectives on a regular basis, learn to interrogate writing instead of taking it at face value (again, even when you like it) and I think you'll naturally improve.

[BoomerZ]

There are a couple things. If you mean bad writing in the literal sense, as in sentence structure, I see a lot of that. But I give some benefit of the doubt as not everyone's english is their first language. As long as you get the point across and work to get better, more power to ya.

If it's dialogue, that usually comes down to not writing how people really talk, but how people think people talk. Long monologues, saying people's first name while talking to them, etc. This just comes from practice.

If you are talking about the writing in the story, there is tons of it. Wasting your readers time I see as the biggest problem. Even people that are generally seen as great, do this. J.R.R. Martin if famous for writing pages of words and saying nothing. Or pointless side stories that just drag down the main story. The biggest problem I see in most comics, is there is no story. It's just a setting for the characters to mill around in. I understand "slice of life" comics and them being time fillers, but most always fizzle out as the readers get bored and move on. The story has to have a purpose and hopefully an ending. That ending should have a nice wrap up of the narrative and leave the reader content at the minimum.

Finally I hate people that say something is "bad" because it's not their thing. I find shonen comics dumb. The power systems and all that. But the writing can still be good. It's just not my thing.

[LostKelp]

I agree with how 'bad' is a vague term, but you can assess writing in where it succeeds and fails - however just because writing fails at something doesn't mean it's bad, similarly if it succeeds at something it doesn't mean it's good. Usually a failure in one respect can be read as a success if you change your perspective.

Writing can fail in ways that make the author look really terrible, it can show off their internal biases, disseminate misinformation, be tonally or thematically incoherent. but how important these failures are is for the reader to decide. This means that writing can 100% be bad, subjectively. objectively bad art is impossible, because, similarly to how there can always be someone that hates your art, there can always be someone who supports it.

[MelancholicOtaku]

Are we talking about bad writing as in bad grammar,and sentence structure,because if so like others have mentioned if English isn’t the writer’s first language…then honestly it’s impressive that the author can write and create a story in another language.

But if the story doesn’t flow all that well, the pacing is off,the dialogue seems rigid then yeah I would consider this bad writing.

However all these things can be improved over a time . A writer should hopefully be able to improve their craft

[Tubacabra]

Hmmm... Does it count if I'm writing it poorly on purpose? Because I could whip up some proof for you real quick!

[Zhengo]

In storytelling terms, I would say bad writing would be if the writer is contradictory with its themes, structural issues with the story, characters that just act as the script dictates, etc.

I think there's lately a bit of pushback on dubbing things as "bad writing" because a crowd of people have started to just call something "bad writing" just because the story contains content they don't like. It kind of feels like these days people have to constantly justify every opinion they have and want an excuse to belittle fans of a work, so they try to turn their subjective opinion into an objective one.

Also, I do feel like sometimes people latch onto calling something as "bad writing" due to a series of nitpicks. I'm actually of the opinion that minor plot inconsistencies are not a big deal for a quality of a story. Of course, you should try to avoid them if you can, but I prefer looking at the bigger picture and how successfully the author has conveyed what they wanted to convey rather than some inconsistencies that are probably due to a bit of forgetfulness. But the nitpick culture kinda did manifest a few years ago with stuff like cinemasins, and I feel like it might make people who want to get into writing become overly nervous and get them stuck in an "outline loop" where they just get stuck in the outline stage trying to make sure they plug up every possible hole in their story. It also ends up with some stories these days having to overexplain certain plot logistics to the reader even when it is obvious from the context.

In that sense, I kind of understand why a youtuber would say this in regards for beginner writers. I think when you're a beginner, you should be diving into things with the mentality of no fear and learn your lessons along the way. I think that getting a beginner stuck in a fear of being "bad" just ends up with them having a hard time getting started.

[BreeBaxter]

Hmmm... Does it count if I'm writing it poorly on purpose? Because I could whip up some proof for you real quick!

YO YO YO b3st13z, T for TRU3 4LL TH3 WAY, ok?! 🤙sO ‘BaD wRiTiNg’? lOlz, nAh, tHaT’s jUsT wRiTiNg wIt’ mAd sPiCe, u fEeL mE? ‘bRoOoO bReE, dIs wAcK’—yEp, hEaRd iT, rEaD iT, lIvEd iT! l1k3, pIcTuRe dIs: tAcOs dE lEnGuA aRe wEiRd bUt u sTiLl eAt ‘eM, rIgHt? cLoUt, bAbY! dRoP."

runs away giggling while throwing taco emojis

[BellaTheCow]

Well I say false only because I’ve observed that it isn’t the story itself that is ever considered “bad” rather it’s the way that it is conveyed (as in perhaps poor grammer or failure to adequately describe the situation or subject of the story ) that might( idk if this is always the case) lead a reader to say that a story is considered “bad”.

Please Note: this is my own opinion and it will change according to any new information I might find out about this subject to be correct. Thank you for your understanding

[bulgariansumo]

I feel like what counts as 'bad art' (including writing, music, etc.) depends on if it fulfils what the writer wants it to. The standards for good writing are most lenient when the writer is writing for themselves, and less so when the writer is writing in order to attract an outside audience/sales/etc.

I was going to try to make an argument that there's no such thing as bad writing if you're writing for yourself, but you can still write something you don't like, so... [shrug]

[Lensing]

Art is too complex for simple categories.

Try to define the words good / bad and you will find out that
1) not easy 2) doesn´t work as a general category

[Tubacabra]

I just looked up the definition of good and this popped up. Not sure if the example sentence was supposed to be ironic, or if they actually thought this was proper English.

(of language) with correct grammar and pronunciation.
"she speaks good English"

[DokiDokiTsuna]

"she speaks good English"

I...think this is grammatically correct, though. ^^; It's just informal in a sort of antiquated way...people don't really use 'good' in certain phrases anymore, but it doesn't make it wrong.

Like, if you break it down: "she speaks English" is grammatically correct. So adding an adjective to 'English' shouldn't break the sentence. "She speaks British English", for example, is fine. So "She speaks good English" should also be technically fine.
It feels like 'good' inherently describes the way 'she' speaks, which makes it feel wrong; because you're supposed to say that as "she speaks well". But 'good' is actually the qualifier of 'English', as in 'good English'. To give another example, "she bakes good bread" is also fine.

Maybe someday 'good' will fall further out of favor, and a sentence like that will break convention so hard you could make a case that it's grammatically incorrect. But I don't think we're there just yet.

Well I say false only because I’ve observed that it isn’t the story itself that is ever considered “bad” rather it’s the way that it is conveyed (as in perhaps poor grammer or failure to adequately describe the situation or subject of the story ) that might( idk if this is always the case) lead a reader to say that a story is considered “bad”.

This is actually a really interesting distinction...so if the way the writer describes the subjects of the story and the situations in the story isn't the 'story itself'...what IS the story itself??

All that's left outside of the telling would be the vague idea behind it...and I think the claim 'there's no such thing as a bad story idea' might actually have some merit. Like, when I say 'anything can work if you make it work'; that's basically the same thing, right?

[KevinReijnders]

There's absolutely such a thing as bad writing. Writing, much like any craft, has a set set of techniques that make the writing work. It's as much a technical craft as it is a creative one.

That said, bad writing is the current buzzword for when someone doesn't like a thing and wants to pretend they know what they're talking about.

[cherrystark]

Art is subjective so everyone's going to have different definitions of what "good" and "bad" are. Most people tend to accept bad execution as a standing definition of "bad writing".

For example, I'm pretty vocal about my dislike for the first person POV. It's trendy and very overdone. I don't like reading it because the female MCs typically tend to read like spoiled, bratty teenage girl and the male MCs tend to read like women doing fake male voices in my head. It's not fun. I also don't like the trope "enemies to lovers" because writers don't understand the trope. But if I found a well executed first person POV, enemies to lovers novel - I'd read it.

[BreeBaxter]

For example, I'm pretty vocal about my dislike for the first person POV.

Wow, congrats on perfectly demonstrating your idea of bad writing while describing it. Bravo, truly next level commitment!

(I’m just a little salty because my current novel is literally a first-person POV with a female MC and an enemies-to-lovers storyline... So yeah.)

[Lensing]

I only read first person POV novels

[NickRowler]

I think there is writing which people call bad and might pick apart to point out every little flaw. Yet there are tons of people who still enjoy it. They don’t care about smaller issues about the writing because maybe there is a larger charm about the it that captures the interest of tons of people.

However, there is writing which is objectively bad. It is not well written and anyone who does enjoy it is more for ironic reasons. I think of things like The Room, Cool Cat, Star Wars Holiday Special, or anything by Neil Breen.

[BellaTheCow]

Well I say false only because I’ve observed that it isn’t the story itself that is ever considered “bad” rather it’s the way that it is conveyed (as in perhaps poor grammer or failure to adequately describe the situation or subject of the story ) that might( idk if this is always the case) lead a reader to say that a story is considered “bad”.

This is actually a really interesting distinction...so if the way the writer describes the subjects of the story and the situations in the story isn't the 'story itself'...what IS the story itself??

All that's left outside of the telling would be the vague idea behind it...and I think the claim 'there's no such thing as a bad story idea' might actually have some merit. Like, when I say 'anything can work if you make it work'; that's basically the same thing, right?

The story itself I believe are the actual events and subjects being described and it is the way that it is described that can make a story become considered “bad” or “good”. Therefore that is why I have come to the conclusion thus far that there is no such thing as a bad story idea rather just failure to convey the idea properly.

So, again, not a bad story, just maybe a difficulty on communicating the idea is all that I’ll consider when considering a story “bad” or needing improvement.

Edit:
Of course in the case where the grammar is not correct because the author is new to the English language then all grammar errors are immediately excused in my case because I can only imagine how difficult it must be to write in an entirely different language.

Note: again, this is my opinion and it will change according to what is eventually found to be correct moving forward. Thank you for your understanding.

[BellaTheCow]

These are some very interesting points to consider. @NickRowler

[BreeBaxter]

@BellaTheCow @DokiDokiTsuna

Okay, okay! So, Bella's like, "The story is The chicken crosses the road and whether it's a gritty thriller or a rom-com about chickens falling in love, it's the same core story—just told differently." Meanwhile, Doki’s over here like, "Hold up! If the telling changes, it’s a completely different story!"

But here's the real kicker: If you two could just agree on what actually counts as "the story", bam, debate over, right?

EXCEPT… by defining the terms, you end up with the exact same problem all over again. Because now you're stuck asking: Wait, is this the same debate, just with new definitions of terms? Or is it a whole new debate with the same old question?!

So, by trying to solve the conundrum, you’ve recreated the same conundrum!!

OH NOOOOOOO! No, no, no, no, noooo!