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LCT_m_a_d
May '19

I was talking to someone about how good it feels to be working on a promising project. That is, following a project that was a failure (my discontined comic). Before I could go on, the other person (another creative) persisted I didn't "fail". Naturally quoting inspirational phrases and thomas Edison etc...

For me calling my last project a failure allows me to make peace and move on despite a few blemishes in my past. Calling it something else feels almost like justifying or covering up the results and outcome.

It's largely a perspective question but how do you feel about refering to failure?

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    May '19

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tchotchkeco
May '19

I’ve always believed that failure is part of success. Everyone will hit bumps along the way with their projects. Yet we can always learn from them and turn those “failures” into learning experience. In a way it kind of wouldn’t be a failure anymore as long as you take something from it.

Even if we were to fail, it isn’t bad. You just get back up, learn, and try again.

LCT_m_a_d
May '19

@tchotchkeco I agree completely! I feel like there's this idea where failure simply means bad/evil. While I don't think of it as necessarily good, it feels more like it plays a specific role in how we change once we learn to respect it.

keii4ii
May '19

It's probably a personal vocabulary issue, rather than a perspective thing. To some people, "failure" means you gained absolutely nothing positive from it, no lessons learned. Whereas to others, failure is part of success as @tchotchkeco put it. Once both parties realize it's a semantics thing, then the conversation can be more fruitful.

LCT_m_a_d
May '19

@keii4ii so to pose the question how do you personally define failure? And how do you feel about refering to a project as failed?

QueenofBabyLoon
May '19

I would never quote Thomas Edison. Ever.

This being said, I think I would refrain to call someone else's work a failure, because I do not know how that person relates to that work of his/hers. Some people might put a work on hiatus for different reasons, but still feel very positive with what they achieved up until then.

However, when it comes to your own work, you know how you feel about it. You know whether the effort you made was acceptable in your eyes. You know whether you reached your maximum (there is never really reaching a maximum in the arts, the arts are not stagnant, they evolve), etc. So people should be careful when they try to be kind and when they project their own emotions about your work onto you.

For us, maybe your latest comic was very enjoyable, we appreciated its subtleties and certainly did not view it as something we would consider a failure. But as you said yourself, that is our perspective. It is not yours. And I hope that the opinion of a visual artist or an author about their work will always count more than the opinion of the audience (though the opinion of the audience is hugely important, don't get me wrong - just that they don't know what is happening during the creative process).

keii4ii
May '19
LCT_m_a_d

I'm not... particularly interested in solidly defining the word failure? X'D I mean, I'm inclined to agree more with "a project can end in a failure but still be a valuable experience," but I rarely have to clarify that definition. I guess people like the person you were talking to are in the minority.

Once a project is 100% in the past, I don't really care to define it as a failure or success. "Is this a failure or not" is most relevant to me when I'm still working on it, trying to determine whether to keep going or not, whether it's possible to salvage it. And I feel like that's a different topic for another day.

LCT_m_a_d
May '19
1

@keii4ii

Fair enough. I think in different cultual context we're probably arriving to the same practical conclusion.

But yeah that discussion should serve as it's own thread.

LCT_m_a_d
May '19
QueenofBabyLoon

Great points.

Ultimately I had goals for the comic and I couldn't meet them so I ended the project because it was fundamentally out of my ability.

I would never judge another artist in regards to their goals and priority so I would never feel comfortable callin another person's work a failure. For myself however, I would need to be honest if I had any hopes for a change.

DokiDokiTsuna
May '19

I agree with that wholeheartedly. To say it was just a 'learning experience' kind of undercuts all the effort you put into it. I mean, a sketch study is a 'learning experience'. When something I poured months or years of my life into doesn't work out, that's a failure. And that's okay.

OttoGruenwald
May '19

I think its time for a poem!

"Defeat" by Kahlil Gibrand

Defeat, my Defeat, my solitude and my aloofness;
You are dearer to me than a thousand triumphs,
And sweeter to my heart than all world-glory.

Defeat, my Defeat, my self-knowledge and my defiance,
Through you I know that I am yet young and swift of foot
And not to be trapped by withering laurels.
And in you I have found aloneness
And the joy of being shunned and scorned.

Defeat, my Defeat, my shining sword and shield,
In your eyes I have read
That to be enthroned is to be enslaved,
And to be understood is to be leveled down,
And to be grasped is but to reach one’s fullness
And like a ripe fruit to fall and be consumed.

Defeat, my Defeat, my bold companion,
You shall hear my songs and my cries and my silences,
And none but you shall speak to me of the beating of wings,
And urging of seas,
And of mountains that burn in the night,
And you alone shall climb my steep and rocky soul.

Defeat, my Defeat, my deathless courage,
You and I shall laugh together with the storm,
And together we shall dig graves for all that die in us,
And we shall stand in the sun with a will,
And we shall be dangerous.

SleepingPoppy
May '19

I generally agree that failure and set backs are just part of life and an important part of success. I don't really think of any of my past creative efforts as failures, though. My goals tend to be very personal, though, so I suppose nothing has happened with said projects that I could perceive as a failure? My first comic only ever gained 30 subs, which compared to my current comic is pitiful, but I was never aiming for a certain number, so I just thought "cool! 30 subs!"

I honestly would rather think of them as learning experiences/part of my journey. XD

That said I think we see artists use hyper negative speech about themselves and their art quite often, and that can be a problem when it is coming from a place of insecurity, anxiety and/or depression. There are a lot of people who would refer to their art or a project as a "failure" and it would be a reason for concern. But that's very.. case by case basis? And even then, a pep talk isn't always the best way to handle that. Certainly in your example you're talking about feeling good about your current project, so the other person focusing on a past project you're over seems inappropriate, though I imagine they meant well.

yansusu
May '19

I think what to deem as a failure largely depends on what your expectations of a project but also of yourself are.

I myself have one project I'd deem a failure. That is because I stopped after finishing only half of it and I do expect of myself to finish what I start (and with start I mean not just some notes or even a plot but truly starting to write and having finished at least some part of it). Since I didn't manage to do that, the project is a failure to me. I certainly learned lots of things from this project but I still didn't manage to achieve my goal.
The nice thing about failures is that as long as they didn't cost a life, you can often rectify them. I thought about my 'failure' for a long time and considered whether to pick it up again and finally decided I'd do it after asking for some opinions here on the forum because it did bug me. Guess I'm just not someone who accepts failures easily ...

LCT_m_a_d
May '19
SleepingPoppy

Well pointed.
I feel like I actually recieved more subs than I expected. Unfortunately the subcount wasnt one my goals.

LCT_m_a_d
May '19
yansusu

I try to distinguish my goals as a creator and creation. My main goal as an artist is to grow and learn but my project goals aren't so liberal. As an artist I am finding success but I can't really say that without aknowledging the first project will always be a failure (unless I someday decide to just re-do it)

QueenofBabyLoon
May '19
OttoGruenwald

This is something magnificent. I will have to discover Kahlil Gibrand. Thank you so much.

Many people in this world chant their defeats, chant the moments they fell under foreign dominion, chant their suffering.

Failure and defeat is a proof that we fought until the very last moment. I'd rather fight and fail, than sit around and be engulfed by the mediocrity of my insecurity and laziness.

JRHoch
May '19

So basically we have you vs Thomas Edison. Hmmmmm...

DasIstWunderblyat
May '19

In my life, I always fail.

For me, everything that doesn't go as planned in a more negative context is a failure. No matter how actually I love it or how does it means for me, failure is failure. I'm quick to call things as failure, it's much better than sense of false security which deceives you.

For example, I expect to answer questions in a conference correctly and fluently. No matter how much I'm being correct, if I'm not fluent or trailing off when answering, I can't call it a success. I will over time understand the situation, learn, and evaluate it, but calling it a success? Absolutely no.

The thing is I don't plan much, so I got less base if it's a failure or not.

My current works and attempts are failure.
Out of 3000 something people who read it, only 107 people who find it interesting, and only less than 10 who actually read it (only 6--7 likes); my expectation is to have sub as much as 10% from view, and the active ones are at least 25%. You cannot call such a work as "good" and "interesting" because the 2083 people are disgusted from the first view, and it's not well-received or performs par compared to similar story with similar starting stat. It's probably one of the biggest failure I have, it makes me think twice from calling myself an author.
However, I'm dedicated to this failure and ended up attached to it; even if the thing fails miserably, I'm still continuing and put my effort to it. I will fight to make this failure better.

I'm tired of people saying "failure is a postponed success," because I feel like failing everytime and everything I do and my success is postponed 100 years in the future. I'm tired of fighting something I would never win, I'm tired of being something I would never be the best at. I fail because of my inferiority and lack of chances, nobody have a point to postpone or cancel it like a plane ticket.

I don't need a journey, I need teleportation; journey is not an objective, the destination is. While what we got in the journey is valuable, but what's the point if we keep wandering out lost in the wilderness.

People don't care about how the defeated fights, they only care about the winners, they only acknowledge losers until they become absolute best at something. We live in a materialistic worlds where you are valued by how you contribute and how you are valued, not the value inside yourself. Nobody wants to pay for effort, we strive for practicality and goal. I just can't help it.

JRHoch
May '19

Someone smarter than me said something like, if you don't fail often, you're not trying hard enough and are playing it too safe. So he/she sees failure as a good thing.