Tapastic community too nice? (WARNING: Long rant)

[shazzbaa]

I'd strongly recommend the article "I Will Not Read Your F***ing Script" (warning, profanity) for some thoughts on criticism and why it cannot be expected. I think it's a really good insight!
Sometimes, when people ask for critique or reviews or help, I have the time and I will do everything I can to offer it! A single critique post takes me HOURS, and when someone says "wow, thank you, this helps so much!" all those hours are definitely worth it!! And I really appreciate everyone who's taken the time to tell me it was helpful for them. ;u; But I can't do that for every comic that posts here, and neither can the others -- we all have comics to draw!

If someone says "hey, read my comic and tell me what you think, thanks" they are asking for tons of effort on my part without making any effort themselves, and that's what bothers me about critique in the community here. I'll occasionally see "I'm having trouble with the anatomy here, can someone help me, what am I missing?" or "I feel like my opening chapter's pacing is too slow, what do you guys think?" and that's cool!! Even "I'm new to comics, what am I doing right? What could I be doing better?" is a direct request for critique that I'll offer my thoughts on if I'm able!
But I'm not going to pour hours into an in-depth and thought-out review if the person may or may not actually want critique.

Also important to consider: Critique is not helpful to someone who doesn't want it! Pruning is useful for plants but it has to be at the right time or you'll snip off all their flowers. If a thread is "comment on the above" then no, I'm not gonna give them an in-depth (or critical) critique, because no one there has asked for it and I don't know if they want it. Unsolicited critique is rude and unhelpful. The part about "don't cast your pearls before swine" that a lot of people don't think about is that if someone doesn't value or have use for pearls, then you'd just be throwing rocks at them, no matter how helpful you think you are.

So, I will certainly be honest and give the best and most thought-out critique that I can if someone has asked for it and I have the time to offer it. ;u; But I'm not gonna assume that my critique is so great and important that you should want it whether you've asked for it or not! If the Tapastic Community wants to foster greater and more in-depth critique, it needs to make spaces for that kind of critique because you can't just drop it in anywhere, and there needs to be more than the effortless, "hey, read my comic, let me know what you think" that casually assumes that thought-out critique is not a big endeavour!

[FixerTheWise]

Back in the IB days, I was told I had street-cred for having thick skin when being critisized. I think it's sad that being able to hear other's oppinions and taking away what you need from it, is a special quality, especialy on the internet srsly..

[Michelle]

I agree, though I generally don't give critique unless someone asks for feedback. Even then it can be hard to critique a comic, because there's just so many points to hit... so if someone wants feedback on a single page, or a specific issue like anatomy, perspective, dialogue etc, it's a lot easier to give meaningful feedback. I was actually thinking of opening an in-depth critique thread for that sort of thing :>

And of course, an honest critique is different from just being mean. People can still be very nice while still giving their honest opinion. Someone giving out mean criticisms just to get a rise out of the creator is just being tactless or a jerk ;c though it's also important to learn how to deal with those types, too.

[mariusthered]

Criticism leads to chalk outlines !

just kidding!

maybe!

[quakeulf]

Constructive critisism must be encouraged at all costs, though.

What this means is if you see something that could be better and you can argue for it so that it becomes convincing, it will give benefits regardless. An example is taking the effort to colour correct someone's page and give a detailed list of steps on how to proceed when doing this. I've sadly seen too many coloured pages that could do with a bit of levels/hue/saturation/brightness/contrast/colour balance/sharpness adjustments to really stand out. However, I don't know the people doing this so I will refrain from commenting on specifics.

[FixerTheWise]

The problem is with this preception you have of critique, that if it's unsolicited it's rude... NO IT'S NOT! Hate and troll comments are rude.

The worst fair reaction to a criticue would be. "Thank you for taking the time to write this up. I'll consider the things you said" That's it end of story.

I just find it really annoying this narcisistic thinking: Oh, someone didn't praise me? What an asshole.

Just because someone isn't super nice, doesn't mean they are rude or insulting. It's not a binary of absolutes.

[AffectedMind]

I once responded in the "comment on the one above topic" I pointed out things I like and things that need to be fixed. It wasn't a deep critique, it doesn't have to be long. That artist later tried to fix it and she's working hard to improve. It's not much and it helps. I didn't say GO MY MINIONS! CRITICIZE EVERYONE'S WORK! No, just do it when you have time to do it, when you are passing by. Like I said earlier "don't make up pretty lies".

[TheVoidchildProject]

I've not been on the Tapastic community long enough to have an informed opinion about whether it's too nice or not, by the way you describe it. But I want to put in my vote for constructive criticism. I honestly think it's mor let important where development is concerned than praise, which is also nice of course. But for me personally I'm at a stage where I want to improve my work and anything that'll help me do so is welcome.

[carloswebcomic]

I think what is happening here is that people are trying really, really hard not to become other webcomic "communities" where creators would gang up to bitch and troll others. Trolling was all the rage in the early 2000's and by golly the webcomic community was on the cutting edge of that trend.

Sure, I see a lot of "your comic is great, keep updating and you'll get more subs" when the better advise would've been to point out the obvious problems the comic had. But then again, it's better to encourage than to discourage.

Yeah, sometime the niceness gets on my nerves, but frankly, this is the first comic community where I actually care to be involved in.
Now, if only people stopped creating forum topics to casually advertise their comics....

[mariusthered]

all kidding aside .. I don't mind people pointing things out to me as long as they do it with respect. rudeness get my goat big time.

The thing I'm most sensitive about (and I have spoken about this before on this site) is spelling problems and grammar. It's astounding how many people will be rude about problems with spelling and not even consider if the person who wrote it is Dyslexic. I now use a word processor to cut and paste all my text but i still get problems with grammar and the odd typo. Now if someone drops me a pm and says "o you need to fix that" i say thanks and do so asap no problem. What really pisses me off is when some grammar nazi makes a big deal and make you look stupid on the internet. people tend to forget not everyone works the same way but that dose not mean everyone who has not got a grammar degree is daft!.

*back to my quite corner *

[FixerTheWise]

You are very quick to think the worst of people lol

[Ringarune]

hmmm, I definitely agree that if people ask for criticism people should give it, however I'm not so sure about giving criticism when it isn't asked for. Everyone has different things they want to get out of their art, some really want to improve and criticism will definitely help, but for others it's just very casual or a way to relax and you can't really know which category people are in when commenting.

In my personal experience, tapastic has been pretty much the nicest and most supportive community I've been a part of and I'm grateful for. I think this kind of environment is special, especially for budding comic creators. Making comics takes SO MUCH effort and it's easy to want to give up sometimes, but this community is so supportive and kind that it can keep one's motivation up.

Looking at a community like webtoon, which although I don't think is bad, most people are really nice, but there definitely are more blunt people willing to give criticism, I think can be demoralizing. I've seen some comics with art that could definitely be improved, and the comments on some of those were kind of harsh. Looking back on myself, if I had been in such an environment when I was just starting out, I think I would come to the conclusion that it wasn't worth doing comics.

[AffectedMind]

Sure, I see a lot of "your comic is great, keep updating and you'll get more subs" when the better advise should've been to point out the obvious problems the comic had. But then again, it's better to encourage than to discourage.

Well I think criticism is encouraging people to be better artists.

[Michelle]

I agree with this--- it's an lot easier to provide critique when someone is looking for feedback on something specific, or on a single page. But just sharing your entire comic and asking for critique... well, it's hard to give actionable feedback on such a large scope, especially over the internet.
And I too am one of those people who writes really in-depth feedback, so I want to know the person on the receiving end is actually looking for advice. I think that article does well to point out the other side of critiques that people might forget-- it takes time and energy to formulate a useful critique, so if someone's just casually throwing out "Hey look at my stuff lemme know what you think" without REALLY meaning it, I'd less inclined to give them a thoughtful critique.

[heterodont]

Idk I have to agree with @shazzbaa. Sure, an unsolicitated critique isn't the same as hate or troll comments - but from my impression, a lot of people make webcomics as a hobby and not something that they particularly want to make a living off of? (granted, it's also split half in half - people who do it as a hobby and people who want to make some kind of money off of it.) So a lot of people might not want to be looking for a critique.

Not to mention an author can just be like "okay thanks!" but throw your advice completely out the window. Again, one of many scenarios but frankly if I was gonna take my time in writing out a critique that wasn't just a broad "work on your anatomy/color/inking", I'd rather do it when someone asks specifically what they need to improve on.

Not to say the forums should just pat everyone on the back 24/7.

[alaingrey]

I am going to agree that unsolicited critique isn't helpful. Some people want to make comics as a hobby only, some people get critiques elsewhere. i spend my whole day job getting critiques from art directors, clients, programmers, random people in the office who just want to make commentary..... 8^I

Unless I ask for it on the internet, I just want to chill and talk to other creators about creating. It doesn't mean I'm not interested in improvement, I just find random critique off putting. I imagine many other people feel similarly because they just get their critique from other places. And if they just don't have the interest and don't really want to improve... hey! who cares! That's their choice, not ours as a community.

[Tanisha]

But sometimes people don't want to improve really? They're just in it for fun which is something I've seen on deviantart a lot and I won't be surprised if people on here are kind of like that ya know?

[niinasalmelin]

I think some part of it is the fact that the environment isn't really professional. It's more of a mix of beginners, pros and hobbyists with completely different goals. It's not bad thing by any means but it affects on how I act here.

There has been many topics where critique is being discussed here and often I've seen people say "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say it" as actually good advice. It baffles me, but I'm not going to get into internet argument over that shit so I just sail away and don't look back. When I want critique myself I go to other forums I know take it more seriously or to my artist friends who don't hold back, and when they come to me for feedback I do the same

Also it's forth mentioning that at first I gave couple lengthy feedbacks tackling the issues I saw. Those people who asked for this critique just flat out ignored me completely and answered to other overly positive ones. After that I don't really feel like bothering if I'm not sure that the receiver is actually looking for critique and not only compliments. Rudely put: I can put my time in better use.

That being said, Tapastic and it's niceness doesn't bother me, because I know where to find good critique.

[Kura]

I thought critique was handled just fine here, even if the community is more on the friendly side you still see it. In the forums you get a good amount of people responding and being active in threads that ask for it (review/critique requests, comment on the comic above, 'how do I do the thing' type threads) Edit: Even meaner if they're criticizing the tapa website or ap =P

While on the tapastic site I'll also see critique in the comments, such as "I think those two word bubbles are supposed to be separate" "I have a hard time telling what's happening in panel ___" or "The perspective looks a little off to me" and of course grammar corrections like "It should be they're not their"

I've even seen not so great / troll like critique (or heard from creators that had gotten it) So it's not as if this place is void of any of that. If you haven't gotten any of that on your comic yet then perhaps you are just not popular enough to attract the troll/'I think I'm helping by being mean constructive but I'm really not' comments.

[sorrelma]

i think constructive criticism is very important but it's worth mentioning that tapastic actually has a community and a sense of accountability, which is a huge jump from some of the hosts i've used in the past. i don't miss flame wars and derogatory comments by teenagers on reddit - and that's what a lot of artists had to deal with before modern hosting sites like this
aside from no longer receiving hate speech disguised as a comment, i honestly haven't noticed a huge change in the kinds of comments i receive. no matter which site i use, it's mostly short, positive feedback - the kind to drive you forward and make you feel good - and suggestions on how to improve. ex my lettering is really awful, and people will tell me that no matter where i am