The “Create For Yourself” Fallacy

HGohwell · Sep '19

I know I said I'd shut up and let discussion happen but I want to make one thing clear.

I am not talking about people who are offended by not getting a response and think they're entitled to it. I specifically use the terms frustrated and disheartened, aka "I'm trying really hard, I'm improving, I'm learning for others who are getting notes/retweets/whatever, I'm putting myself out there, I don't understand what I'm doing wrong" mindset rather than the "wtf why aren't you guys paying attention I'm clearly worth it" mindset.

JRHoch · Sep '19

The last time someone used this expression, he was burying a subordinate in concrete.

Lyric · Sep '19

I'm glad you posted this for the wider audience of "art" beyond comics because I feel like every creature on the planet is currently attempting to pen the next "great novel". It's unbelievably competitive and hard to garner attention, not to mention we are creating in an age when the format for storytelling is rapidly evolving into many different digital forms and it's challenging to figure out what avenue to plod to try to find an audience. I'm certain this frustration applies to indie and upstart artists of all kinds (illustrators, writers, film makers, musicians, etc).

Jenny-Toons · Sep '19

I mean, at that point, I just take a break and work on other things. Again, as @yansusu referenced, a lot of creators do have different goals and motives, so my take on this is just different and it's kinda why I'm a bit laid-back in my responses. I'm of the mindset "If I'm not getting paid for this and I'm not enjoying it in some way, why am I doing it?", so that's mostly how I base my advice and experiences.

If I'm not getting the feedback I need but I'm also spending a lot of time on this, that's a sign for me to take a break and head on to something else for a bit. If I'm not drawing, I'm cooking, writing, exercising, putting more focus on school and work.

It helps me to take a step back and go "ok, what's REALLY going on". If I'm getting 0 feedback and 0 responses, my questions for myself are "where am I posting to get feedback? how many places have I posted to? Have I been posting and waiting for someone to respond or have I directly asked someone to give feedback?"

Again -- that's just my approach to it. It does sound like you're frustrated, and maybe there are times we can't always afford to take a break. But if we're spending 24/7 on something and nothing's getting done, there's only so much our bodies and minds can take before we burn out. And then even LESS gets done at that point. Along with marketing, having passion, and looking at other people's work, it's also important to maintain self-care.

Maps · Sep '19

I’m guilty of telling people to “create for themselves” who aren’t getting the audience attention they’re seeking. In no way had I meant for it to be more offensive.
I mean it more like you (“you” being a general term for all creators) should continue with your original idea and carry on with your work, and see if maybe the traction will come later on. And to not give up on your work because the numbers aren’t what you’re expecting right away. It’s likely that your story matters to you or you wouldn’t be working on it. But I guess this can just be my mentality since I create as a hobby.
And sometimes I guess it just comes down to finding all the ways to self-promote on different platforms. Or finding ways to engage with your audience in each chapter you put out so it’s more interactive.
It’s hard to gain traction and it can be disheartening and unmovingating when you are excited to share your work to, what feels like, no avail.
But I think people mean best when they are encouraging people to create for themselves.

ben · Sep '19

All the work I do for myself I just don’t post. I probably have 400 pages of unpublished comics and definitely more illustrations than that.

Some of the work I keep for myself are projects I started and tried to test the waters with friends or online real quick but didn’t land as well as I wanted them too but finished them privately on my own time for fun OR I’ve been toying with finishing a project in its entirety before doing anything with it.

The obsession with posting everything online is definitely unhealthy and I think that constant dopamine rush isn’t good for anyone and people shouldn’t ignore the research. I think people really need to think about how and why they’re using social media and maybe take a real long break and practice making work without that incentive.

joannekwan · Sep '19

I think 'create for yourself' is an easy platitude to use because it can be a blanket statement for all sorts of situations.

Ultimately I believe the true message behind it is to "Do what makes you happy."

E.G.
Make this work to help one get by/deal with life, an audience comes second. (especially if it's the process of creating and the actual work itself that lifts one's mood, not the response to it.)
Don't chase trends one doesn't even like and be disappointed if the numbers aren't coming up how one wants them.
Don't bend to the will of what audiences are clamoring for, mutating the real story one wants to tell.
Have the numbers but the project is making one miserable (and one isn't under contract/paid to complete it)? Move on to a new project that does make one happy!

DokiDokiTsuna · Sep '19

Ah yes...I'm familiar with this...

I feel like the true argument here isn't Creating for Oneself vs. Creating for Others and deciding which one is the superior mindset. I think the point is that 'just create for yourself' as a response to someone's struggles is not only unoriginal, it's rather insensitive.

Basically, I see the situation this way:

A: "Hey so I'm having a hard time gaining an audience for my work; I don't want much, just for some people to like and pay attention to what I do from time to time, and it's really frustrating that I can't have that"

B: "Okay...well, you wouldn't feel frustrated if you'd just stop wanting that"

A: "OmG ThAnK YoU sO mUcH I'm CuReD"

...That's basically what's happening, IMO. ^^; It's in the same vein as telling a depressed person "just cheer up" or telling someone mourning the death of their loved one "just stop thinking about them". Like seriously?? Your silence would be preferable to a suggestion like that...if you can't offer help, at least offer understanding, rather than dismissal.

xabelmind · Sep '19

It sounds like they are mixing do something for your enjoyment and receiving feedback.

So there are four ways:

You enjoyed the work and want some appreciation.
You enjoyed the work and don't want feedback (usually here, you don't post it).
You didn't enjoy the work, you just want appreciation.
You didn't enjoy the work nor want feedback (usually here you burn, shred or bury the piece in a stormy night without moon).

People saying that sentence you quoted is putting you in the third point and don't consider the existence of the first.

So it would be great to let them know that you and the big majority of human beings, like to do what they enjoy, share it with others and receive feedback for it, because our social nature calls for social acceptance and support

It'll blow their mind

carloswebcomic · Sep '19

This is something that really burst my tits.
The problem I've found with webcomic communities is that a lot of creators think they are artists, and by that I mean, what they imagine an artist is. So many believe that they are creating magic by shooting fairy dust out of their arses.

I know a few artists, not some guy with a webcomic, but people who have exhibitions and make a living with their art. They are not under any allusion that they are making magic or food for the soul (or whatever other rubbish people think they do). It's work, and with all work, a pay off is expected.
Art is a product, whether you like it or not. Sure, you can make things for yourself but frankly, comics, are made for mass consumption. It's a communication tool.You have every right to want people to read it and appreciate it. In fact, you have every rights to want thousands of readers.

So how do you deal with people not reading?
You change, improve and adapt. Find out what your strengths are and build on them. This is how you don't lose hope, keep looking for a formula that works, because it's somewhere out there and you just need to find it.

joannekwan · Sep '19

See now I'm pretty sure this applies to 99% of things posted on the internet.
The issue is when the viewers that do come across the work created don't particularly care for it.

Like, I'm happy an artist is happy making their inflation porn comic. But am I gonna give it a like/share or go out of my way to tell them "Yo! I'm happy this is your thing and you seem to love what you do!", heck no! It's not to my taste nor do I have the time to give everyone a clap of encouragement.

AceRagz · Sep '19

Your definition of an artist is a bit off too. In truth most of those which we can consider to be true artist broke their backs working and getting next to no payback. some didn't even get recognition until after they were dead. Expecting to get paid for everything you produce is entitlement to me. Not everything you do is going to yield some sort of monetary or respect return.

joannekwan · Sep '19

I think artist though is a broad term, same with a lot of other terms.

Like is an accountant who goes to the gym for hours everyday and does triathlons on the weekends less of an athlete than a professional basketball player?

AceRagz · Sep '19

A very good point. i'm just tired of carlos popping in and putting this same opinion into every thread about artists that no one is a true artist but those getting paid for their work in exhibitions.

HGohwell · Sep '19

Haha as always someone eventually turns up as says what I'm trying to say in far simpler clearer terms. Thank you!

I do understand people are trying to say it to be encouraging and mean it from a good place, but at the same time, you could say the same about people who say "you're so talented" and we've all seen how much that offends people around here. They're trying to give praise but instead people feel like it's minimizing their effort. It's the same in my eyes. I don't snap at people for saying it, because I know they mean well, but it quietly bothers me.

I know I've said I'm not asking for advice and I tend to just push through and this is mostly not the point of the topic, but this is one of the problems with my current situation. I can't really take much of a break because I'm in convention prep time. I often use my social media to gauge the interest in art for prints for conventions and usually it works quite well. Suddenly getting no feedback or reaction to anything I post means with just under 2 months until the next convention I'm questioning what goes out to print. Going from a reasonable response to nothing is a pretty scary thing at this point in time, which doesn't help the frustration.

IndigoShirtProd · Sep '19

I feel like your definition of artist lacks nuance. . . and context. . . and open mindedness. . . and understanding . Look what I want to know is, 1) do you draw your own comic, and 2) if you do, do you not qualify yourself as an artist. Sorry to diverge from the topic at hand, but if your definition of an artist is whether not they are a professional or have a gallery full of work, that's kind of distressing.

carloswebcomic · Sep '19

No, you're not understanding what I'm getting at. Success doesn't make an artist. What I'm pointing out is that if you do the work, it's reasonable to expect a payoff. Why do you think those artists broke their back? To be ignored? No, they broke their back for a payoff.

The idea that one should only create for oneself because that's what artists does should never be applied as a set standard. People do what they do for their own reasons and that's just fine, but they shouldn't impose it on others.

spadesart · Sep '19

to me it feels kind of like baking. people can absolutely love baking and dream to make a living out of it and have fun cooking, but if they serve something and nobody ever tries it, even if the person who made it thought it came out perfect, theyre gonna be discouraged and disappointment. i draw because i genuinely like creating but i do still crave the validation of sharing the experience with others because like food, its a big part of artwork.

carloswebcomic · Sep '19

No, what I'm saying is that if you put the work, it's not unreasonable to expect a payoff.

VibrantFox · Sep '19

i kinda wish someone would elaborate this point because sure you cant monetize every single thing you make but is it really entitlement to want at least something from some of the things you make or am i going loco

like there's been situations where i see the word selfish being tossed around sometimes (not too much here more twitter and other social media) and i just want to know what defines someone as being selfish.

In regards to the main topic point it does get a little tiring to hear "create for yourself" because on one hand yes one might be creating things they like or want to see or have interest in but there's also a desire for a bit of return on hours of work being put in. It definitely feels like an easy blanket response but can fall flat if something isn't solely a hobby for an individual.

Personally I've had to force myself not to conflate it with "create for the joy of creating/because your passionate about it" because phrases like that tend to be immediate agitators. Yes there's passion in creating but 'passion alone can't fill ones stomach'.

I see nothing wrong with wanting a little attention or a lot. It's understandable to become frustrated and makes even more sense to eventually feel burned due to that frustration but in terms of solutions that's what seems the most difficult to find especially from on individual to another especially since different people have different goals.

I've been feeling this kind of burnout and mostly keeping quiet because while I still want to be able to get some attention on certain things I don't want to come of as whiny or "entitled" by complaining about or even mentioning the lack of it.

The “Create For Yourself” Fallacy

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