The 'Gratuitous' Line

[VermillionWorks]

First, this isn't a repeat of the 'What do you consider mature themes?' topic, rather I'm wondering when each of you guys consider a certain something (referring to mainly comics, but it can be for any media) has gone too far, or has just crossed a line from 'necessary to show' to 'just gratuitous' IE showing it for the sake of showing it. Have you ever dropped a comic for this reason?

This goes for graphic violence, nudity (mostly referring to sexual nudity), fanservice, swearing and sexual scenes. Or heck, it doesn't even HAVE to be mature themes per say, but rather just something about the comic that didn't need to be there but the author/artist kept putting in anyway. (Though try not to let this turn into another 'things you are sick of seeing in comics' topic, I'm mostly referring to adult themes some may be sensitive to.)

Even if you don't drop a comic you consider having crossed this line, do you feel like it's become 'tainted' by showing too much of said thing, or do you simply shrug it off and look past that for the other parts you consider good? Are you more tolerant of graphic violence than sexual themes (Ahem...me, sometimes) or vise versa? Basically just say whatever you feel about this!

I personally have dropped a couple of comics because of the fanservice becoming less and less subtle until I felt they basically lost the plot.

But yes, I also got the urge to make this topic in relation to my own comic, sometimes I wonder if people drop it because they feel the violence went too far. I'm trying not to make this particular comic have TOO much violence that doesn't need to be there, but I still hold back nothing when I show it. Granted, I'm not expecting people who can't stand that sort of thing in the first place to stick around, but I do wonder how often people think I'm making a comic only for the blood and guts and drop it for that reason...

[Doubtcent]

A lot of times, mature themes should have some sort of redeemable value to them in order for it to be really allowed. When you read a comic where there is fanservice, violence, vulgarity, nudity, etc., ask this question:

Is it adding to the plot in any way?

If it's purposefully there for character building, pushing the plot forward, adding humor, drama or the human element, then I usually give it a pass. However if it's just there to pull in the lowest common denominator, and if the comic never tries to do anything else but, I will not stay with the comic.

A lot of comics tend to start off with some of these mature themes to pull in potential readers right away, or do it later to pull in new ones if the comic is limping. These moments I try to ignore if the story has engaged me already, but if a comic has only been using that one ploy to pull in readers the entire time, then to me there's no redeeming value. Soul Eater did this a lot at first, and I was about to stop reading it until the story element was given more a ton more focus. At that point any of the fanservice became a push for humor and aesthetic reasons, not just for fanservice.

[UzukiCheverie]

It's funny cause last night, Daulton (my BF) was telling me about this anime film called "Mezzo Forte", where it's a really nice anime movie until . . . they drop a hentai scene right squat in the middle of it. Like WHOA that was out of nowhere, wish I had gotten some kind of warning or foreshadowing to this happening.

^^^^ If that last statement is how a reader might feel about a certain scene, and not in a positive "WOW THIS IS REALLY HEATING UP" or "WOW THE TABLES HAVE REALLY BEEN TURNED" kinda way, then chances are, you proooobably should exclude it.

This basically hits the nail on the head:

Is it adding to the plot in any way?

If you want to just add a sex scene in there or something simply because you want to attract readers to the fanservice - don't do it. Most of the time, you end up doing your story more harm than good, and if it doesn't benefit from this sudden happening in any way shape or form, then that's all it is - fanservice, and in the end, fanservice only satisfies people for a short amount of time; it's the overall story you want to stick with them, and the fanservice doesn't need to be a part of that.

If your comic is cute and fun and adorable and using themes of friendship and love, it can be very, VERY difficult to pull off the sudden "OH NO NOW THEY'RE ALL GOING TO DIE IN A SEA OF FIRE". Some stories it's worked for, but that's only for a very, VERY set few, and they usually have some sort of foreshadowing or build-up leading to it. Don't slap boobs and sex scenes and nudity and swearing and violence in there just because you want to attract new readers. At that point, you're just selling yourself out, and is almost an insult to the readers who have been dedicating their time to actually following the story since day one.

I think one of the only shows/movies I've seen that has successfully pulled off the "SUDDEN DEATH AND EVERYTHING IN A HAPPY STORY" was Barefoot Genji, and that's because that story ended up being about the bombings of Hiroshima during WWII. It had that ground to be built on and was based on the author's own experiences as a bombing survivor, and wasn't just thrown in there because he wanted to appeal to the other spectrum of readers who read things only for fanservice and whatnot (first thing that comes to mind for me when I mention that? Highschool of the Dead. It's always just been fanservice-y to me and that's why it never appealed to me).

[winglesscomic]

I'm really tired of the 'obligatory sex scene' in every movie ever. If I wanted to see this, then I would watch porn.

Yes we get it, the touching, the kissing, taking the pants off, yep we get it, we all know where this is going, okay you can fade the screen to black now...

oh what it's still going? now they're almost naked? all right I just watched 5 minutes of softcore porn, what was the point of this? did this impact the plot? if this is supposed to be 'character development,' we don't need to watch a whole sex scene to understand 'ok, these two like each other.' Please move on to something I care about.

For someone who likes gore though, I get really bored of over-the-top gory scenes very quickly. If you do it too much it just loses its charm. And yeah, if I see too much fanservice I just stop and never continue. If an anime or any other work has to rely on T&A to get fans in lieu of its plot (if there is one), then I think it must be a pretty shitty work if they have to resort to appealing to the LCD for viewers.

[facemeltingsolos]

Is it adding to the plot in any way?

I think this might be all there is to it. I've watched documentaries that felt like they've crossed the line to me. Really though, they were just showing a harsh reality or some such. Of course, I'm just a sensitive sort and would rather be told a terrible reality than shown it.

When it comes to fiction, on the other hand, things are a lot easier to take so we have more of a possibility of going overboard with things. We need this disembowelment because why? This nudity or sex scene why? This ugly string of words, why? If it's to affect the characters in an important way, shock the reader into changing their mind about a thing or sometimes enhancing the atmosphere (whether it be realistic or cartoony) then it's probably not stepping over the line. If that violent scene could have played out less gruesomely with the same or greater impact, then you might want to see to that.

It's all about your ability to control your expression. How clearly are you communicating what you have in your head? How subtly can it be done? Is your work supposed to be anti-subtle?

A porn that shows people having sex isn't gratuitous. A war movie that shows atrocities isn't gratuitous. A sci-fi show with a long history of being philosophical and character-driven, which suddenly has a titillating scene with two characters stuck in a room getting naked and rubbing jelly on each-other might just be construed as gratuitous. Yes, I'm talking about Enterprise.

[abbastudios]

If I can remove the questionable section from the story and the story still makes sense and reads well, the it is not needed.

[zelkats]

I don't know if this applies but I have dropped a comic once for making light of a serious thing like suicide. It's supposed to be a comedy comic and I'm all for dark humour, but I didn't laugh and it didn't particularly deliver any message. What the heck is it there for?

[SpavVy]

@zelkats I don't think something like suicide should be used for humor...

[AnnaLandin]

As long as it's motivated by reasons of plot or character development, I'm fine with it. "Gratuitous" happens when there seems to be no motivation other than "I want some violence here" or "oh right, how about a sex-scene?". Does it feel random, sudden or out of place? Then it's probably gratuitous.

I don't know whether I find graphic violence or sexual themes worse when it comes to this; sudden gory violence can really put me off a story, because while a certain level of violence might be necessary to the plot, there are moments when the "camera" lingers too long, or zooms in too close and really revels in all the sticky details, and that does make me feel a bit nauseous (hi, I am FAR too squeamish and cowardly to ever watch a horror movie; they give me nightmares). There's violence in my own comic, but I try to keep it at an appropriate, non-nauseating level, because the point is not really the blood, but rather the impact it has on the characters.

On the other hand, I find that sexual themes cross the line into gratuitous far more often than violence does. The inclusion of sex scenes often feels very forced and out of place - and this doesn't apply only to comics. I can't tell you how often I find myself rolling my eyes in disgust as YET ANOTHER action movie places a super-dramatic kiss in the middle of a really tense action-scene. It's silly. And while kissing is not exactly "sexual themes", it's still symptomatic of a wider attitude. Also, the transition from a plot-relevant scene to a gratuitous sex-scene often feels jarring. The story will be plodding along and then BAM! - suddenly sex-scene, often far more detailed than it needs to be.

I have stopped reading comics both due to undue violence and gratuitous sex-scenes - but it's not really the violence or the sex themselves that put me off, but rather how they're included in the story. It's like random panty-shots; they're not really there for the sake of the story. They're only there for those readers who want to look at cartoon panties. And I'm not one of them.

[getsuart]

As Winglesscomic, I'm bored about the obligatory sex scene in every movies. I remember friends saying a little bit seriously "a movie isn't a movie if there isn't any sex scene. Otherwise, it's a disney.". And I'm pretty bored of this.
Like said Anna, the line's crossed a way more often than violence. Maybe because violence is a bigger plot ? I don't know why. It may be just more "acceptable".

For the violence and gore, I must say that I already pay attention to movies or comics that use it. I'm not a fan of gore, so whenever I see it goes too far for me, I stop. So I can't really tell. For violence itself, yeah, sometimes I feel it's there for free. To free adolescents'/adults' mind because of the pressure of school/work or I don't know what. Or it's just saying "yeah it's totally violent yeaaaah see how cool it is !". I feel it gratuitous in both case.

[Zanreo]

As Winglesscomic, I'm bored about the obligatory sex scene in every
movies. I remember friends saying a little bit seriously "a movie isn't a
movie if there isn't any sex scene. Otherwise, it's a disney.". And I'm
pretty bored of this.

Oh man, I also can't stand the "obligatory sex scene". Especially when it doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose except for fanservice.

[AnnaLandin]

Chiming back in because I just thought of a perfect example re: levels of violence.

Snowpiercer is a very, VERY violent movie. It is brutal at times, and does not flinch away from stuff that honestly turned my stomach at times - as stated above, I'm pretty squeamish - but I loved it. And the reason why I didn't find that brutal violence gratuitous was because it all fit into the atmosphere of the story. The violence was brutal because the brutality was part of the movie's theme. The violence is not only a little bit of extra sprinkled on top; it is an integral part of the story.

If I'd been watching, say, The Avengers instead, the same level of violence and brutality would have been unsettling and weird and off-putting, because the themes and the points of those two stories are entirely different. Avengers has a much more hopeful, positive atmosphere, even at its low points, whereas Snowpiercer is far more bleak and ruthless, because it has a different message.

Context and intent are super important.

[ErithEl]

This thread was very interesting because I've been giving this exact topic a lot of thought - and I like hearing what you all think about it as well.

There are parts I've written into the script of my comic that (if not done properly) could be considered gratuitous, or just thrown in there for shock value. In my mind, it all ties into the plot and is necessary...but it's also important for the reader to get the same impression.

You've all made good points, and I think this will really help!

And yeah - I think most people are tired of the obligatory sex scenes in all movies, now (I'm even tired of the obligatory and unnecessary romance that's just thrown in there because...why? Because they think people won't want it if two of the characters don't get together in the end??).

Also @AnnaLandin the actual violence in Snowpiercer didn't bother me (not surprising after Game of Thrones) EXCEPT for Chris Evan's monologue toward the end. I won't give away spoilers, but man...that one stuck with me!

[AnnaLandin]

@ErithEl oh god yes it totally did for me too! I mean, it's clearly supposed to - it's intended as a kind of emotional body-blow - but holeeee sh*t does Chris Evans ever deliver it well. I honestly had to pause the movie for a moment and catch my breath.

[kotaotan]

I think it depends on context. I know a comic I follow has a lot of nudity but it's a sword and sandal style fantasy and all of the characters are primitives. You expect violence and nudity in there. Now if I went to a comic like Gamer Cat and there was a full on rape scene for the sake of it then we have a problem. It all has to do with tone, setting, and audience. It's something you need to learn as a writer/artist over time. Mistakes WILL be made but you learn from them.
As a reader, you have to consider who's creating the comic you're reading. Are they experienced? If not you'll probably have some very awkward moments that don't fit the tone of the rest of the series.
Just some stuff to think on.

[Luie]

Well I once read something like that.

In High-school, I used to be freshman-friends with a manga artist who was working on a "Graphic Novel" or whatever and was hinting towards a collab comic with me.
She asked me to read her comic. So I did.
Cliched slash of life/ speshul powers something. Whatever you'd expect of a freshman author.
But then there was this one scene. The main character had something bad happen and now the panels were filled with him being alone and depressed and having a monologue about his thoughts and feelings in various rooms of his house to create the illusion of time.
Somewhere on those pages is a long, skinny panel of Mr. Anime Protagonist Man sitting hunched-over on the toilet barefoot, pants down crotch covered, staring at the ground talking to himself about his thoughts and feelings. This is immediately followed by a close-up, top-down shot of his head while sitting on the toilet with some even more dramatic dialogue.

That. That right there. The ANGLES, .....the drawing itself, the initial shock followed by confusion and other stages of grief.... the things it makes me think of, and that fucking nonchalant transition.

Look, I understand our characters need to poop sometime, somewhere, but unless it is the butt of a joke (lolbutts) it does not belong in someone's eyes. Now, i like to give every comic a chance, but because of this.... trauma, if I ever see that kind of nonchalant bathroom scene imagery again I will immediately uninstall my browser and tear my contacts in half.
Then I will probably post it on imgur.