The Idea of Shape-shifting and disguises = Transgender

[TAMAnnoying]

So context, I recently got into a discussion with friends about trans characters that existed before the 2010 age and one of the characters that came up where the Sailor Stars from the Salior Moon show. Now I've never considered them as trans because from what I read in the comics and what I viewed in the show it felt much more like the entire gender swap was a Disguise more then a personality or a way of life for them. So this question about if the Sailor Stars could be considered Trans or not escalated to basically: Do Characters that Shapeshift or use disguises that involve changing gender Make them transgender/transsexual or does it have to be more then that for you?

Because- I know im not a transgender person, but I've spoken to a few about how they feel about it- and from what i understand, calling a shapeshifter character transgender just cause they change there gender from time to time to fit in or "cause its fun" would feel... I guess cheep to me? Like its a much more complicated situation for people both chemically and socially. BUT again I'm not transgender myself, (I just do a lot of role plays a shapshifters :p)

So yeah, my question is really just how do people feel about it personally? Is someone who changes their gender by ways of shapshifting or magic to "fit in" or "disguise themselves" feel the same? Is that something that people can relate to or is it SUPER different?

Really just curious and wanna pick peoples brains

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I would go ahead and assume that the two situations (willingly disguising yourself as the opposite gender and being trans) are not really equivalent. =/

It's about the mentality...it's like the difference between someone who puts on their "customer service" persona for their job, and someone who (by some miracle) just loves serving the public. One is just a means to an end; the other is a way of life, an attitude that just feels right. They may overlap sometimes, but they're not the same thing.

[TAMAnnoying]

See that was the impression I was under, like you’d have to not be super ok with your current form and feel better in the other form? At least to be trans. I assume you could also be gender fluid rather then a cis shapeshifter if you just dgaf and change into whichever one you feel best fits the scene?

[vothnthorvaldson]

The gender fluid idea may be closer, yep.
To be verified though, because I don't consider myself as gender fluid.
But, I think me adapting my visible gender to differents circumstances (which I've done almost all my life, not for personal comfort but for social convenience) is very, very close to shapeshifting. That's how I see it, a bit magical, uncanny and unreal.

[Kura]

You don't have to be dysphoric to be trans.

For fictional characters being able to change gender at their convenience. The trans community can still see those characters as trans because well. Wish fulfillment is a thing. You watch / read something and think "damn I wish I could do that" A trans icon doesn't have to go through the trans struggle that the trans community goes through IRL to be seen as a trans icon.

[Cavechan]

I think it's important to keep more narrow definitions for words because when the definitions become too broad it can actually do more harm than good. A person who is shape-shifting isn't necessarily trans. I think being trans is more about what a person feels in their heart and mind and what they generally view themselves as.

I also don't like to push labels onto fictional characters since we can't see what the character is thinking and we don't know the author's intentions, unless those things are actually stated.

There's also this whole debacle where people are calling "trap" characters that are clearly not trans "trans". People also use "trap" as an insult towards trans people IRL. A trap is a fictional type of character with a specific trait. These two are not synonymous and interchangeable. A boy who happens to look feminine isn't trans. Physical traits don't make a person's gender.

[NickRowler]

Crossdressing or having a 2nd persona of the opposite gender does not necessarily make someone trans.

Being trans does not mean you take on a 2nd personality, trans people have the same personality before and after transition. Same with a genderqueer person is still the same person, just switching up identifiers for that day.

People like Hollywood actors who crossdress and a lot of Drag Queens/Kings are changing the way they act to present a character for the intent of entertainment. And I think disguises fall under that because of the intent

[An_Alias]

Shape shifting and disguises don't equal transgender. That'd be like calling a drag queen trans while they're dressed up (not that drag queen's can't also be trans). I think the confusion might be coming in here with how trans people tend to identify with shape shifting characters. I personally was obsessed with Mulan as a kid for this reason and know a few people who feel the same about Ariel. I think I've read something about this being a known phenomenon, but I'll have to look for it.

If you're ultimately asking what it means to be transgender (for characters and IRL) I don't think you'll ever find one "true" or "right" answer. Everyone is different. The best I got is that it's someone who experiences gender euphoria that isn't aligned to their assigned gender. That's only because I've never meet someone who transitioned (socially and/or medically) for the hell of it. This shit is awful to go through, no one does it or fun.

[Bree_Mana]

(Non-binary comic creator here!)

I personally don't think that if the character is just doing it for fun/ as a disguise counts, it really depends on if they identify with the gender. if they identify as female but sometimes use a male form for whatever purposes then they're still female. The character doesn't necessarily have to feel dysphoria to be trans, but the whole concept is not identifying with the gender assigned body one is born with.

I actually ran into this issue as I have a version of shapeshifters in my own webcomic TLC. These shapeshifters can pretty much change into any animal.But I decided that its impossible for them to shift sex, as in even in animal form they'll still be the same biological sex (with the exception of animals that are hermaphroditic).

Spoiler for chapter 2 of my comic but one of the main shapeshifters is actually transgender, and I find it interesting to toy with the idea that maybe people that aren't shapeshifters in TLC's world think they can shift sex. It would be a misconception that would annoy said character greatly.

So yea IDK if it makes much sense for a shapeshifter that can choose whatever body they want to be transgender? But if theres limits on how they can shift than it feels more like in the realm of possibility tbh. at the same point I don't think a head canon about X character being trans does any harm either.

[mrtoontastic]

Shape-shifting and disguises don't equal transgenderism. They're meant to act as a way to keep yourself out of, or escape, dangerous situations. If a person is only doing it just for fun or for a casual, then it still doesn't count as being transgender. Shape-shifting is not a permanent change and it only works when disguising as a specific person, not necessarily altering the shifter's body.

[KRWright]

I don't know about this. I feel that being transgender has a lot to do with the relationship that a person has with with gender that they were assigned at birth. I'm not sure disguises or shapeshifting imply the internal struggle that is part of transgender identity for some people. I can only talk as an NB transgender person, but I usually don't think much about NB representation or trans representation unless it's confirmed in text or by word of god if it's not in the text. For me, unless it's somewhat explicitly stated, I don't assume a character is transgender as that could erase just... tomboys, or non-genderconfirming men and women, drag kings/queens, etc.

[TAMAnnoying]

For me, unless it's somewhat explicitly stated, I don't assume a character is transgender as that could erase just... tomboys, or non-genderconfirming men and women, drag kings/queens, etc.

I agree with this Statement a lot, I’ve seen a couple of cis straight men wanna walk around in high heels for their girlfriends (to make their butts look good ) and wanna start wearing makeup (to make themselves look younger) but sometimes when they go out they’ll be told “no no, your prob trans tho, cause of all the stuff your wearing.” Now I can tell most of these people are well meaning but it can cause it’s won form of gender disphoria and discomfort if all you wanna do is look good but you can’t do it without a label being put on you either as a gay man or a trans women.

Now granted I think it’s a bit more chill for characters from books and comics.

The trans community can still see those characters as trans because well. Wish fulfillment is a thing. You watch / read something and think "damn I wish I could do that" A trans icon doesn't have to go through the trans struggle that the trans community goes through IRL to be seen as a trans icon.

The thing is I agree with this to some extent to because- yeah fantasy. I think if it’s in your own wants and you relate to a character it’s ok for you to think they’re trans for your own enjoyment so long as your not also impeding other peoples Enjoyment of that character as a cis gendered person. Death of the author and all that. If they’re connocnocally cis but you have a lot of relatability with them- I doubt most authors would be upset that you.... you know like seeing the character as trans because it makes you happy? I think it’s only if you do this to real life people or get mad at people for enjoying the cannon version of the character that it becomes unhealthy?

On that note I’m enjoying all the difffeent veiw points and would like to add more but I gotta go to work now! So maybe latter 8)

Weeeeeeeee responsibilities

[HGohwell]

I think you can read whatever you like into characters shape shifting. I think it comes along with things like headcanon. If someone reads a shapeshifter or disguise as transgender, I think that's their right to do so. If they associate with it, that's their right too. It's entire up to a person how they headcanon and how they read a character and how they identify and relate to a character.

Gonna go on a ramble about the differences in cultural differences and readings for a second and that fits into the pre-2010 trans representation OP was talking about sorta, skip to the last paragraph to avoid:

Of course the problem with this in canon rather than just a persons specific personal reading, especially in Japanese media, and older Japanese media, is cultural differences. For instance, to get mildly contraversial and please don't kill me, Grell from Black Butler, as I have mentioned briefly before, is considered canonically trans by the overwhelming majority of western fandom as a supposed character interview confirms. Japanese fans have all but given up pointing out the author consistently refers to Grell as a gay man, that was an unauthorized translation that takes a lot of liberties, and that Grell actually is more in line with a, thankfully not very prevalent anymore, stereotype that essentially conflates being a gay, trans, a drag queen and a pervert into one character who wants to be treated as "the big sister" and uses typically female language. Of course, they're generally met with hostility and death threats from western fandom for pointing this out.

The point is there's a difference between what someone reads and what canon says, neither is entirely right or wrong, but you have to be a bit careful. And obviously it depends on the context. Disguises, don't really fall into the same category, I mean cosplaying the opposite gender doesn't make you trans so why should a disguise. I think it's more about the character and how they feel rather than something as superficial as they changed their form or their look.

[Cavechan]

If someone reads a shapeshifter or disguise as transgender, I think that's their right to do so. If they associate with it, that's their right too. It's entire up to a person how they headcanon and how they read a character and how they identify and relate to a character.

It can be problematic though when someone equates a trap character as being trans. Because then people may think it's okay to refer to a trans person as a "trap" or they may think that being trans is just looking like another gender or crossdressing (which are the vast majority of traps). They may fail to realize just how integral it can be for someone's well-being.

[HGohwell]

I mean the fact that very few parts of the internet use trap unironically (or at all really) these days thanks to all the awareness of how it effects trans people irl aside, it's still up to a person how they headcanon a character, as long as they're aware of the difference between canon, headcanon and interpretation. You can't tell someone who looks at a character and says "I read this character as trans because I see things I relate to as a trans person in them" that they're wrong and the same with headcanons. And yes there are lots of issues with people declaring a character trans just for dressing or acting a certain way, but that doesn't mean there aren't trans people who don't dress or act that way too. Everytime someone says "that's not how group X really are" there is a person from group X going "but I am" after all. And as I mentioned about, the conflation between crossdresser and trans and even homosexuality is already a major issue in some places, but that doesn't mean people can't read that as trans if that's how they relate to it and read it.

[lasluchasbravas]

The best way to move forward is to read more materials that are about/feature trans people...

I have no doubt that there's great material on Tapas but I'm a little new so I'll post a traditional comic that's explicitly about the topic at hand.

Moth & Whisper is about a gender fluid thief who takes on the personas of both their parents (Moth & Whisper) who were world famous thieves themselves. Here, that the character is gender fluid isn't a trick or shallow hook in the story, and Niki's self-perception both in gender and in regards to the legacy of their parents dovetails really nicely together and makes Niki a fully realized character, as opposed to a specific archetype/trope.

ALSO THE BOOK IS REALLY FUN.

https://aftershockcomics.com/moth-whisper/

[Cavechan]

Sure, anyone can say anything is anything. I can call a cat a dog. Everyone can do that. I just advocate for more narrow definitions since using broader definitions for these cases are just going to be problematic in the long run.

[indagold]

Calling gender non conforming trans is just seeing everything in terms of black and white gotta be honest as someone whose struggled with being GNC. There's so many different layers to gender whether its drag, crossdressing, disguises that doesn't need to fit under the trans umbrella. I'm very sad people forget gender expression is a thing and is separate from gender identity.

[HGohwell]

I can call a cat a dog.

Sure you can but that's real life not a fictional character and there's a difference called personal interruption just like there's a difference between canon and headcanon. That's why they have different names. I'm not sure why you have a problem with me suggesting that some people read their own situation or similar situation or traits in a character and so read them as like them?

Calling gender non conforming trans is just seeing everything in terms of black and white gotta be honest as someone whose struggled with being GNC. There's so many different layers to gender whether its drag, crossdressing, disguises that doesn't need to fit under the trans umbrella. I'm very sad people forget gender expression is a thing and is separate from gender identity.

I'm literally saying the opposite. I'm saying that all these can be part of someone's experience and they have the right to see themselves in a character and say "I experienced that or something similar so I read this character as like me". Just because they are separate things doesn't mean there's no overlap. My friend says "this character lines up with my experiences as a trans person so I choose to read them as trans" and I say "I don't read that character the same but you do you and I'll do me and let's not force our interpretations on each other" and we get along not "how dare you see something that resonates with your personal experiences in that character who's simply just cross dressing".

[indagold]

So you took me explaining that GNC is largely lumped into the trans experience and that there's no nuance when it comes to interpreting characters in the media since gender is a complex thing that can't be boxed into trans/cis to me silencing lgbt fans who headcanon characters which isn't even canon? That is a reach