The ship you want vs. the ship you need

[DokiDokiTsuna]

[Star Wars Ep 9 spoilers imminent]

...I'm feeling a bit conflicted.

Like many fans, I was shipping RenxRey right out of the gate...it was the obvious ship, after all, and it only got more fun as they started doing that 'mental/environmental force connection' stuff (by the way, that is an AWESOME gimmick and I really hope to see it again someday, hopefully in a stronger story).

Anyway, it was a lot of fun to imagine them liking each other...right up until the moment it became reality. '_' And it's not just because it was a bad kiss scene (and it was BAD)...I really think, even if they pulled off a BEST ENDING POSSIBLE and Ren and Rey both survived and lived happily ever after...I'd still be a little disappointed.

Like, of all the ships they chose to solidify in this last film (like FinnxRose...or FinnxREY), THAT'S the one they picked?

I will admit that it makes some sense: both Rey and Ren seem to have a rather...odd obsession with each other, and everyone knows that an attractive guy/gal trying to kill you is literally the hottest thing ever.
But there's one thing they don't have that's important to every good ship: character chemistry. They just barely interact beyond fighting and asking each other plot-relevant questions. There's no banter, no clear signs that they actually admire each other or enjoy each other's company or even affect each other emotionally until the end...it's pretty much all business with them. :T Which should make for a pretty low-tier ship. Hell, ReyxPoe would be more believable...

Anyway, this wouldn't be weird at all if it weren't for the fact that, for the first time in my life, I wanted a ship that was clearly a bit wrong for the story and actually got it. But I got it in such an awful way that, now, all I can feel is frustration.

Like, it was just supposed to be a fantasy; you weren't supposed to make it real! Let alone real and BAD! Now the ship is dead, the love triangle is broken and NO ONE is satisfied!! Somehow you actually managed to find a way to disappoint EVERYONE simultaneously! I hope you're proud of yourselves...! ;_;

[HGohwell]

This is actually pretty common and a very good reason why many series choose never to make things canon or to have it become only canon at the veeeery last second so there's not time to ruin things. And why if you say to a shipper "but it'll never be canon" most shippers of any sense will reply "and???".

Shipping Bed Death - TV Tropes

Lots and lots of couples that have a long build up when they eventually become canon are met with a feeling of "wait you weren't supposed to make it real". Often because the will they won't they and fantasy is infinitely more appealing than whatever canon can offer. It's also what happens when you go for popularity over believably or the original plan. Or something, but getting the couple together you get rid of the dynamic that made them interesting the first place (aka they're constantly back and forth and very clearly giving as good as they get but the second they get together they're either happy and soft without the banter or one suddenly becomes somehow submissive and stops sniping back) especially when it's something less ideal and sort of obsessive or combative.

[TAMAnnoying]

Don’t forget that Disney did an oops With its own cannon and they’re related Now! (until they make a new comic/book explaining why there not actually related cause woops)!

[Tanzer]

They're not related, Palpatine orchestrating Anankin's birth was a just a huge fear of Anakin's. Matt Martin(one of the comic's writers) has confirmed this on his twitter, people are just taking panels out of context.

[Tanzer]

As for reylo, I think The Last Jedi did a great job of setting up an intimate relationship between the two. They are isolated, lonely and afraid, with immense power, responsibility and expectation placed upon them. I think it makes sense that they would form this close bond, the problem is tros really fumbled it because JJ doesn't know how to write romance and we got a shit ending.
Also apparently Finn doesn't have feelings for Rey, he was just trying to tell her he was force sensitive lol.

[Iris-Grimoire]

As someone said in another site, when did Rey fall in love with Ren, we wonder? When he tried to mess with her mind? When he made her best friend, Finn's life hell? When he got angry outbursts that didn't look sane by any stretch of the imagination? When the diplomacy failed so he decided to resort to insulting her?

True love. The thing about ships is that we think of situations where it CAN work - that's why fanfics exist - and the problem isn't that the characters aren't compatible, it's that the canon product goes with the mindset that you read all that fanwork and is ready to accept this change that doesn't actually fit once you look into it. My favorite example is the last The Legend of Spyro game, where the romance between the two main characters was shoved with all the finesse of swallowing a brick. Surely, you had three years to read all the fanfic where they interact as real people and develop a relationship, we don't have to pay attention to the fact that one of our characters is currently unstable and they don't have any real chemistry with the fandom context removed!

[AVXP]

As someone said in another site, when did Rey fall in love with Ren, we wonder? When he tried to mess with her mind? When he made her best friend, Finn's life hell? When he got angry outbursts that didn't look sane by any stretch of the imagination? When the diplomacy failed so he decided to resort to insulting her?

Or maybe when Kylo killed his father - and her 'father figure'? Right in front of her.....
In one of the Avenger movies, there was a weird chemistry moment when the Hulk was inexplicably chasing the Black Widow around on the super-carrier. She calmed him down- and for some reason it triggered an idle thought. A few movies later, they tried to take it there and it was horrible.

I've always considered one of the problems with creating a viable romance the friend-zone, end-zone thing.
Like, if you do get with this person, how do you function together as a couple?
So many times, people have feelings that don't match up with interests, personalities and lifestyles.

One person outgoing, the other a recluse.
One person exciting, the other boring.
One person popular, the other person is generally disliked.
There's always an envy associated with these dynamics - and a role reversal.

Han and Leia? They did it by making Han switch to Leia's world. He was no longer a pirate and became a rebel general.
Anakin and Padme? She switched and was a politician in his world.

Finn and Rey makes sense if they are going to run around the galaxy and have adventures.
Finn and Rey doesn't make sense if she's really about becoming a Jedi.
Unless he's force sensitive and well, then...

Kylo and Rey feels like fan service, which is basically the whole point of the franchise now.

[Tanzer]

Han wasn't her father figure, she was angry with his murder because a) They formed a friendship and b) her own shitty parents sold her into slavery and she was repressing that knowledge. Rey's happy go lucky nature is a mask, that was the point of the interrogation scene. Their first duel in the forest shows her hidden ferocity too. Or when she attacked Luke. She's not as stable as you might think.
The romance as depicted in Last Jedi is very metaphorical and interwoven with the Heroine's journey. She's drawn to him because he represents her own darkness, not to mention it's classic femgaze power fantasy( think Beauty and the beast) where love and feminine power are inspirational and transformative. And dark beastly, characters have been symbolic of repressed, forbidden female sexuality for as long as stories have been around.
Also Star Wars is supposed to be a fairytale for children first and foremost and I personally think killing off a character who represents youth who feel rejected and abandoned by their families, instead of a chance at peace and atonement is cowardly, americanised bullshit.
Again it's cool if you don't like it, I'm not even super into shipping but the romance does have value and I think it was set up well and I don't think people wanted a romance without redemption.
Honestly my biggest take away from all this is that this whole situation really would have benefited from female writers and an actual three story plan.

[AVXP]

Honestly my biggest take away from all this is that this whole situation really would have benefited from female writers and an actual three story plan.

Strange thought there- since it already has the feel of super-female-centric writing.
And that is actually one of the biggest complaints about the series.

Also Star Wars is supposed to be a fairytale for children first and foremost

Not true. I think you listen to what certain people claim and assume that's the true narrative.
I see all these claims as spin.

There's very, very little to support these kinds of claims - aside from the facts that little kids seem to not have a problem with many of the bad decisions around Star Wars. And most have/will change their minds as they get older.

[Tanzer]

George Lucas himself called Star wars a fairytale for children several times during the time of the prequel trilogy.
Also there were literally no female writers on this trilogy:
TFA was JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan.
TLJ was Rian Johnson( Though he did heavily consult the story group.)
TROS was JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio.
Having a female lead does not make the writing female centric. The only film I'd say has a feminine narrative is TLJ, where Johnson consulted the story group and played "The Heroine's journey" very straight. JJ Abrams clearly just wanted Rey to be Luke 2.0 and that's where the complaints of her being a mary sue come from and honestly after TROS I can't blame people for thinking that. So yeah I think women writers were needed and more importantly a three film plan because this trilogy was just a huge waste of time and potential.

[AVXP]

George Lucas himself called Star wars a fairytale for children several times during the time of the prequel trilogy.

He's said a lot of things that are untrue.
Along with many red herrings to mislead, spin and cover.
That's the reason we won't get a Star Wars movie until someone that gets it, writes one.

JJ Abrams clearly just wanted Rey to be Luke 2.0 and that's where the complaints of her being a mary sue come from

I don't know. You claim things like this as fact.
As opposed to ANY of the actual people who are calling her a Mary Sue and using any of the reasons they suggest.
Those same people can explain why Luke isn't/wasn't a Mary Sue.

That is way off.
But I think we're slipping way off the topic.

[Tanzer]

He called it a fairytale in context of why Jar Jar was created as comic relief or when speaking to Kasdan about killing off characters and his love of "Happily ever afters". That's not red herrings that's just his perspective on the series he created. I don't think George has ever been particularly decietful, the only secret he seems to have kept was the Vader reveal in Empire. If you have any examples I'd love to hear them but he seems sincere and honest to a fault. Also I wasn't calling Luke a mary sue I just worded that badly, and my thoughts are just that, my thoughts.
But yeah I agree this has gotten off topic.

[AVXP]

I can name a dozen, but here's one.
There's an interview where George is claiming he's going to kill off the popularity of Star Wars by going darker. and how the third movie of the prequels will alienate fans by growing dark. He said that.
He said he was going to drive off fans by going darker and more serious.

As if fans EVER said they want a lighter Star Wars.
Even the original trilogy suffered from the kiddie-add-ons from Return of The Jedi.
The EWOKS if you didn't know. The jokey battles, terrible aim, bad, bad stuff.
That series was already in decline.

EVERYONE universally understands that Revenge of the Sith was the closest he ever got to the old Star Wars magic.
And again, look at the death and destruction in that and Star Wars, the clouded morality plays..

There's a reason this franchise was beloved by all. It worked for all ages and genders.
It doesn't do that anymore.
You could think deeply or think shallow.
The deeper you think, the worse the movies seem.

If anything, going darker got us better on track, unless you think mother jokes and the iron-pressing-a-uniform-sight gag is Star Wars.

I ultra, ultra agree that not planning for three movies worth of plot was a horrible idea.
--

As far as relationships, go - I see that under most normal conditions, relations happen.
And most "normal" or equal-leveled characters happen pretty normally.

It's only when those levels become too different that we need a big event to push couples together.
Hence, save the universe and be rewarded with a relationship.

@Tanzer : I would ask you, what do you do to spark a relationship between two characters?

[TAMAnnoying]

I’m really tired of the idea that being a women means your gonna be a better writer. Or even better at writing women. Here’s a hot take- the reason why this trilogy is bad isn’t cause it’s a bunch of male writers, it’s cause disney had no plans and in the end they hired two people who hate each other’s work to somehow work together. The problems is bad writing and zero planing. It has absolutely nothing to do with what’s between peoples legs, thank you and good night.

You want starwars Edward and bella to have good chemistry? Hire people who A. Give a damn and B. Can write better then a room full of monkeys.

[Tanzer]

I think that's more George misunderstanding what his fans wanted than straight up lying but I do see your point. And I do agree that dark story elements are incredibly important to Star Wars and I think the reason for that is people want a story to take itself seriously. Both ROTS and the Clone Wars tv show wouldn't be so loved without that darkness.
However I do think lighter elements are needed to make the dark moments hit harder, there are other pieces of media for all ages, I feel balance this better (Animorphs and Watership down are really good at this for example) but they still appeal to kids. Personally I didn't care for most of the humour in TLJ but I did like it's darker atmosphere of uncertainty, despair and decay but also hope and change. I don't like TROS because it seemed really rushed and careless to me.

As for romance it really depends on what kind of story it's being written in to. I like your point about characters being equal leveled when in a romance because to me that is the best kind of romance, one that is balanced and understanding by the end of the story( The point of the story can of course be the difficulties to get to this point i.e Beauty and the Beast). I think a really important starting point would be a shared interest, whether that's because they both have a stake in some great war as enemies, or maybe a simple rivalry or friendship over a hobby. A shared interest, a shared passion and then work from there. A lot writers will go for the enemy/rivals to lovers plot structure because it gives a lot of room for personal growth and character development. If done well that's probably my favourite romance structure. How about you @AVXP ?

[AVXP]

Speaking of equal levels, my imagination has no problem imagining, ahem, Captain America and Black Widow dating. I almost watch the movies and wonder HOW are they NOT dating. Equal in so many ways AND they do missions together.
I don't want to see it in the movies, but I can feel the natural chemistry.

So I'd answer the question as- have adventures together. I think the best relationships happen when there is a friendship under the lust. Like, it's fun to hang out when not doing dating/romantic stuff too.
99.9 % of my friendships are born from shared experiences.
We went through stuff together- we had similar experiences- usually at the same time.

And the bonding is that we reacted the same way.
Finn was close when he said he cared so deeply about Rey because of how she looked at him, etc...
Better if he had DONE something and she bestowed the title 'hero' on his head and led him to self-realization.

That relationship started as a weird [subtracting other adjectives] lust.
Boyfriends in Star Wars? Is he cute?
You're thinking about that, then?

I rather have a much more subtle look later on when he begins to see her heroics and realizes she's special.
Leia earned Han's love and respect.
Anakin (you could argue) seduced Padme. (oh geez and look what it took- the setting and such) he could have gotten just as far as waiting till the Genosis Pit fight to start the romance. Even after....the adventure.

---

[Tanzer]

Yeah I never got why they didn't go for CapxBW especially after winter soldier. A more realistic approach to romance with the characters starting as friends and going on adventures together, is pretty timeless and can be very sweet. (Spidey and MJ for example.)
But that is a romance trope aimed way more at men than women . Which is not to say women can't enjoy it but if we're going for typical tropes found in media aimed at women, a lot of stories focus on transformative love and conquering your shadow. It's self actualisation and growth and understanding. Pride and prejudice has both our leads grow and mature, self reflect and learn because of their interactions with one another. Then we've got Beauty and the Beast or even recently The Shape of Water or The Cruel Prince. Women like darkness and conflict in their love stories because it's a power fantasy.
The Clone Wars tv show actually does a great job depicting Anakin and Padme's love story as tragic and unhealthy but still enjoyable. Also without those scenes on Naboo we'd never have the great sand monolgue.
Han and Leia is interesting because they clearly were into one another at first purely based on attraction but because they had such different personalities they really clashed. Leia being especially stubborn about her feelings.
Also Finn and Rose went on an adventure in TLJ and she saved his life and was very clearly attracted to him. Poe trusts Finn greatly and even gives him his name and they go on an adventure in TROS.
I think ultimately romance is just down to personal preferrence.

[Tanzer]

I didn't say women were better writers than men. I also said that having no three movie plan was a mistake. Also it's nothing like Twilight.

[AVXP]

Also Finn and Rose went on an adventure in TLJ and she saved his life and was very clearly attracted to him.

Which is weird to me. It's like she was created to be a love interest- non interest.
I'm not sure what fantasy she was supposed to represent or fulfill.
She had a chubby panda bear quality and exuded no sexuality and played it platonic.
[which is fine for utility characters]
Then, out of no where- BAM forced kiss (pun intended)
AND her actions interrupt his moment.
All weird decisions.

She was like a kid sister to me. A sidekick that got too much screen time.
I mean, they could have dressed sharp when they went to the casino.
That would be an excuse to show her in a more mature light.
Maybe he sees her...differently...
I mean Finn was like a horn-dog with Rey, but asexual with an available woman-girl.
Poe has a love interest and then no, not really.

The opposite is Admiral...Hodo(sp) who is wearing an evening gown on the bridge of the starship.
Why? What? What was the point of that visual?
Was she supposed to be sexy?
Padme looked great in her white adventure outfit.
Like Wilma Deering in Buck Rogers.

Star Wars has never gotten these details wrong till now.

You know what else stunk the romance up?
The one where the cities were on wheels.

[Tanzer]

There actually was originally gonna be a scene were they got dolled up for the casino! I think it got cut for time though lol. Rose to me is kind of like an audience surrogate, she inspires him to become the hero she thought him to be at the beginning of the film but when Finn takes it too far and almost sacrifices himself she's there to save him. I'd be fine with it being one sided if TROS actually bothered to address it at all.
Holdo is in some of the Leia novels( set when Leia was a teen I believe) and she's established to be a fun weirdo but the movie kinda dropped the ball on that one. And Poe is just.. Poor Poe.