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Jun 2019

Yeah, my main issue is when I see abs everywhere on like romance/slice of life/drama comics that don't have any action, fighting or sports, there is really no reason for ALL the guys to be that fit but I see the same body types in fantasy/action genres too and honestly even if we just look at athletes, athletes all have different body types for their sport:

More examples on this article2
I think it's a fantastic reference for creating diverse body types for characters.

But please explain to me why guys are not wearing those awesome gowns and high heels and skirts that are OMG-SO-EASY-TO-FIGHT-IN??

Because it's BS. Of course a pro athlete will manage. That's their job. That is them being good at what they do.
Should we all go around doing capoeira and parkour because some people are insanely good at it? Should we all try to swallow knives because some people can do it, no sweat?
Will you tell everyone to crawl in the mud in full fatigues in the sun for hours, because some highly trained soldiers can do that?

The fact that stunt actresses can fight in high heels and skirts and gowns and thongs and maybe stilts and even straight jackets doesn't mean every female fighter in your fictional world would willingly choose to wear those things to battle.

And if all of those things were so much easier to fight into that pants and shorts, guys would wear them. Seriously.

There is so much more diversity (body types but not only) in this picture than... in almost every video game I've ever played.

I'm crying now. :sob:

You're obviously not going to listen to the point. I never said everyone should, I said they're not as bad as people think and that you can't say "people can't fight in this" when people can. But this is getting too far off topic so thanks for the debate.

Absolutely!! I think it was an excellent asset to the conversation take in consideration stunt doubles opinions.

OK. One more time. Why aren't male fictional characters running around in kilts and high heels? Since it's so practical and easy to fight in. :sweat:

Because if you look back at my first post, my point was never that is it impossible to fight in those torture devices. Just that I'm sick of seeing so many female characters in them, even though it makes no sense to pick such clothes when you fight for a living, no matter what universe you live in.

And really, stunt actresses won't work as a counter-example. They do not FIGHT but ACT for a living. There's a HUGE diffenrence. Even in our fairly patriarchal world, women who fight for a living do NOT wear high heels and skirts. So why would they in every other fictional world out there?

It seems to be entirely feasible to fight in a straight jacket. If you were sufficiently talented and trained, of course, but still. I wouldn't mug Jet Li in a straight jacket, I'm sure I'd end up in a hospital. Still, if 70% of male action characters wore straight jackets, I'd be complaining about it on this topic just as much as I'm complaining about skirts and high heels. :slight_smile:

Also, you said that no one is making the argument that "Women can/should run around in thongs, heels, and miniskirts while waging medieval battle"... Excuse me, but a lot of people are making that argument, by making SO MANY high-fantasy and low-fantasy female characters wage medieval-style battles while wearing thongs and heels and miniskirts. AND THAT is precisely what I'm venting about. Because it makes no sense and I'm sick of it. :cry:

And I'm also a bit sick of people pretending it's not happening. :sob:

I could say the same about you, really. I never tried to say that it was impossible to fight in those things, only that I'm sick of seeing so many female characters wearing them even when they're fighting for a living.

I don't see how we got off topic really. Are female warriors in skirts and high heels a boring, overused and nonsensical trope in character design or is it actually practical and sensical? Seems to me like this is actually quite precisely the topic we're in right now.

I also thank you for the debate. Even though you tried to end it by saying I was "not going to listen to the point" which is... hurtful and untrue.

(I don't know what the heck is going on in here but aight)

anyway...:

-multicolored or ombre hair
-waayyy too many details that you can barely draw or let alone see
-too many similar colors/not enough contrast
-same face syndrome amongst the cast

The way I see it... I posted a video of me professionally wrestling in a brown leather kilt, and to protect humanity a select group of motivated people pretended to debate all day to bury it from unsuspecting eyes.

That's my theory.

Wait what? When did that happen? (and will it help the charges upon my creation and it's failures be buried too?)

EDIT: NM I found it!

There's a great show called Outlander (also an excellent book series) where men run around in kilts, and it's beautiful. Both in the sexy way, but also in the genuinely historical and interesting way. ^^

My point is that it's totally cool that you're sick of this, and yes it happens way too much, but the existence of kilts (not to mention some of the things Greeks and Roman fighters wore) does suggest skirt like outfit choices could be done practically, therefore situations exist where it could make sense.

To be clear, that doesn't negate you being sick of it. I'm super sick of the male gaze and the sexualization of women's bodies in media too. Very legit thing to be sick of. I don't want to see women running around in short skirts, thongs, and ridiculous high heels. But I'm chill that media exists and can exist that uses some aspects of this in design in ways that aren't gross. Just personally. Not saying you have to be into that.

I just disagree with the entire statement that we should ignore what stunt women have to say. They're modern women who have experience wearing and armor. Even if they're not literally fighting a medieval battle, it still might be useful to understand what their experience was. How well could they move? How accurate was the armor? Yatta yatta. It's not just about them wearing skirts, it's about having a modern group of people who have worn a wide variety of costumes that might have insight into how we as creators design things in the future.

Maybe this is just a point we fundamentally disagree on? I don't think stunt actors prove or disprove that ancient lady knights could/couldn't wear skirts. Just think that they could have relevant insight in some scenarios to various aspects of designs. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

But you're responding to other people here like they're the ones saying that when they're not. Personally I would love to see more men in dresses and more women in realistic armor. ^^

Hopefully thats all clear. Quite a lot to go through so I tried to focus in so that my point of view is clear. XD

....I said nothing about thongs... or heels.... Where is this animosity coming from anyway?

Character design is often inspired by things in real life. I literally took classes that encouraged me to take things in real life and turn them into something new.

Saying what stunt people found more comfortable has nothing to do with the fact that they didn't get to choose. There were two very different outfits. there was a preference. Simple as that.

Seriously chill out.

Sorry. I did not mean to sound so hostile. I just felt like venting about character design tropes I'm sick of (which I thought was the point of this topic) and I felt like multiple people were teaming up to tell me my point of view was invalid. Maybe without suffering through an actual heat-wave-induced insomnia (not kidding, I live in France, it's so hot right now I literally can't sleep) I wouldn't have felt so dismissed or answered in a way that would come off quite so angry...

I apologize. :cry:

It's fine I feel for a lot of your thoughts. Thongs are never a valid form of clothing. Like ever, seriously. :cold_sweat: Heels don't belong on the battlefield either.

I heard about the weather there. I hope you're staying cool. :cry:

Never visit Texas. It is very hot where you are, but that's normal temps for us until sometimes end of September. Pedelite pops if you can find them will help.

Maybe folks can come back to this tomorrow after a cool off? (physically and mentally?)

I actually think we agree on almost every point... though sometimes internet makes it really hard realizing what one has in common with the strangers behind remote screens...

I'm sorry. I never thought that anyone should ignore what stunt women have to say.
What I meant is that if the argument is "Too many fictional female characters wear skirts. Even in situations where that makes little to no sense.", then the experiences of stunt women cannot serve as a counter-argument.
Of course, if what you want to counter is "It is absolutely impossible to fight in high heels and skirts." then stunt women and Scottish warriors are perfect counter-examples. But I never tried to say that and I'm quite confused why my rant was interpreted that way.

So, yeah. Stunt women are impressive athletes and their testimony should definitely be taken into account. But, tbh, I think they're forced to wear skirts and high heels way too often as well. To my taste, of course.

I'll probably never visit Texas because everything I've been told about that great state makes me feel unwelcome as a left-wing French lesbian... Though I'm sure a lot of what I've been told is BS.

As for the temperatures, I think it'd be easier for me to sleep right now if the heat wave hadn't been so sudden. About one week ago it was around 14 degrees celsius (57 degrees fahrenheit) in the morning where I live. So I haven't had time to adapt to the summer heat... :cry:

Ahhh, well if you want some tips for keeping your temp down send me a PM. I have tips and tricks (I can't stand the heat either)

Yup!

You do end up effectively saying they're irrelevant over and over again. I'm pretty sure HG originally shared it as more of a tangential "Hey this is interesting if you're wondering about women fighting in skirts and heels" not specifically as a counter argument.

Because you repeatedly say no one would every willingly choose to wear a skirt and fight. So it being practical and having a history of people who fight wearing equivalents is relevant.

I get that what you're actually trying to say is that there's too much of it, and particularly that it is hyper sexualized. But the words you're saying and what people are arguing with you on is a very prominent and repeatedly statement that :

It can make sense, and there are universes where it would. There's historical evidence of it happening in this universe, so clearly fictional universes could exist where it's done, and done well, in ways that make sense and are hopefully not hypersexualized.

Agreed.