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Jun 2019

I could say the same about you, really. I never tried to say that it was impossible to fight in those things, only that I'm sick of seeing so many female characters wearing them even when they're fighting for a living.

I don't see how we got off topic really. Are female warriors in skirts and high heels a boring, overused and nonsensical trope in character design or is it actually practical and sensical? Seems to me like this is actually quite precisely the topic we're in right now.

I also thank you for the debate. Even though you tried to end it by saying I was "not going to listen to the point" which is... hurtful and untrue.

(I don't know what the heck is going on in here but aight)

anyway...:

-multicolored or ombre hair
-waayyy too many details that you can barely draw or let alone see
-too many similar colors/not enough contrast
-same face syndrome amongst the cast

The way I see it... I posted a video of me professionally wrestling in a brown leather kilt, and to protect humanity a select group of motivated people pretended to debate all day to bury it from unsuspecting eyes.

That's my theory.

Wait what? When did that happen? (and will it help the charges upon my creation and it's failures be buried too?)

EDIT: NM I found it!

There's a great show called Outlander (also an excellent book series) where men run around in kilts, and it's beautiful. Both in the sexy way, but also in the genuinely historical and interesting way. ^^

My point is that it's totally cool that you're sick of this, and yes it happens way too much, but the existence of kilts (not to mention some of the things Greeks and Roman fighters wore) does suggest skirt like outfit choices could be done practically, therefore situations exist where it could make sense.

To be clear, that doesn't negate you being sick of it. I'm super sick of the male gaze and the sexualization of women's bodies in media too. Very legit thing to be sick of. I don't want to see women running around in short skirts, thongs, and ridiculous high heels. But I'm chill that media exists and can exist that uses some aspects of this in design in ways that aren't gross. Just personally. Not saying you have to be into that.

I just disagree with the entire statement that we should ignore what stunt women have to say. They're modern women who have experience wearing and armor. Even if they're not literally fighting a medieval battle, it still might be useful to understand what their experience was. How well could they move? How accurate was the armor? Yatta yatta. It's not just about them wearing skirts, it's about having a modern group of people who have worn a wide variety of costumes that might have insight into how we as creators design things in the future.

Maybe this is just a point we fundamentally disagree on? I don't think stunt actors prove or disprove that ancient lady knights could/couldn't wear skirts. Just think that they could have relevant insight in some scenarios to various aspects of designs. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

But you're responding to other people here like they're the ones saying that when they're not. Personally I would love to see more men in dresses and more women in realistic armor. ^^

Hopefully thats all clear. Quite a lot to go through so I tried to focus in so that my point of view is clear. XD

....I said nothing about thongs... or heels.... Where is this animosity coming from anyway?

Character design is often inspired by things in real life. I literally took classes that encouraged me to take things in real life and turn them into something new.

Saying what stunt people found more comfortable has nothing to do with the fact that they didn't get to choose. There were two very different outfits. there was a preference. Simple as that.

Seriously chill out.

Sorry. I did not mean to sound so hostile. I just felt like venting about character design tropes I'm sick of (which I thought was the point of this topic) and I felt like multiple people were teaming up to tell me my point of view was invalid. Maybe without suffering through an actual heat-wave-induced insomnia (not kidding, I live in France, it's so hot right now I literally can't sleep) I wouldn't have felt so dismissed or answered in a way that would come off quite so angry...

I apologize. :cry:

It's fine I feel for a lot of your thoughts. Thongs are never a valid form of clothing. Like ever, seriously. :cold_sweat: Heels don't belong on the battlefield either.

I heard about the weather there. I hope you're staying cool. :cry:

Never visit Texas. It is very hot where you are, but that's normal temps for us until sometimes end of September. Pedelite pops if you can find them will help.

Maybe folks can come back to this tomorrow after a cool off? (physically and mentally?)

I actually think we agree on almost every point... though sometimes internet makes it really hard realizing what one has in common with the strangers behind remote screens...

I'm sorry. I never thought that anyone should ignore what stunt women have to say.
What I meant is that if the argument is "Too many fictional female characters wear skirts. Even in situations where that makes little to no sense.", then the experiences of stunt women cannot serve as a counter-argument.
Of course, if what you want to counter is "It is absolutely impossible to fight in high heels and skirts." then stunt women and Scottish warriors are perfect counter-examples. But I never tried to say that and I'm quite confused why my rant was interpreted that way.

So, yeah. Stunt women are impressive athletes and their testimony should definitely be taken into account. But, tbh, I think they're forced to wear skirts and high heels way too often as well. To my taste, of course.

I'll probably never visit Texas because everything I've been told about that great state makes me feel unwelcome as a left-wing French lesbian... Though I'm sure a lot of what I've been told is BS.

As for the temperatures, I think it'd be easier for me to sleep right now if the heat wave hadn't been so sudden. About one week ago it was around 14 degrees celsius (57 degrees fahrenheit) in the morning where I live. So I haven't had time to adapt to the summer heat... :cry:

Ahhh, well if you want some tips for keeping your temp down send me a PM. I have tips and tricks (I can't stand the heat either)

Yup!

You do end up effectively saying they're irrelevant over and over again. I'm pretty sure HG originally shared it as more of a tangential "Hey this is interesting if you're wondering about women fighting in skirts and heels" not specifically as a counter argument.

Because you repeatedly say no one would every willingly choose to wear a skirt and fight. So it being practical and having a history of people who fight wearing equivalents is relevant.

I get that what you're actually trying to say is that there's too much of it, and particularly that it is hyper sexualized. But the words you're saying and what people are arguing with you on is a very prominent and repeatedly statement that :

It can make sense, and there are universes where it would. There's historical evidence of it happening in this universe, so clearly fictional universes could exist where it's done, and done well, in ways that make sense and are hopefully not hypersexualized.

Agreed.

Well, thank you for giving me enough context for me to finally understand what I've done wrong from the start. Also, thank you for having the patience to talk me through the misunderstanding I'm clearly responsible for.

I realize now that I was absolutely unclear... and I will unashamedly blame the heat-wave and sleep deprivation for that lack of clarity and not mention alcohol because... oops. Anyway.

What I actually take issue with is universes (fictional or not) where every male fighter wears pants and every female fighter wears a skirt. I do acknowledge that Greek and Roman fighters from Antiquity and Scottish warriors did wear bottoms that function more like skirts than pants. I have played about 120h of Assassin's Creed Odyssey with the female MC and never once felt like Kassandra was wearing a sexualized, nonsensical, impractical and out-of-place skirt.

So, this makes sense to me:
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But this doesn't:
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10

For reference, both characters come from AFK Arena, a Chinese F2P I'm wasting too much time on those days.

Of course, that's just the latest example that irked me among SO MANY, but really, why would Lucius wear plate armor so tight you couldn't guess his skin color if he wore a helmet, meanwhile Estrilda, who rides a horse at all times, is wearing... er... I'm not even sure what to call that.

You know I actually enjoy the threads when we all vent I think it is healthy to put our true opinions out there. I'm actually sick of bikini armors and skirts

this is exactly the point I don't agree with. We have seen stunt doubles perform the most outrageous physically demanding sequences in all types of terrain...and somehow this is not relevant??? No, sorry. I get what you are saying, I don't agree.

You literally said, "Anyway who cares what stunt actors have to say?" in your initial post..I don't think some of us are taking stuff out of context just to antagonize you. It is totally valid if you feel that way anyway!!

My intention is not to pile up or come to tell you to change your mind. I just want to contribute to what has been said.

You say stunt doubles they are told what to wear, therefore there is no choice of wardrobe. Well, female bodyguards often wear heels and they do so as their free choice, also dresses. Another example, some of my friends train like medieval warriors and they chose heels and corsets to fight because they are comfortable, in fact, their legs and feet are so accustomed to heels that they can't wear flats without feeling tired. why are men not wearing it? because culturally is not what they wear in daily life, therefore, are not accustomed to it.

Can some women choose skirts and heels when they are going to get involved in risk situations and heavy physical activity? Yes. Many others would not, but the option is there. So I'm personally not pushing for the extremes or say that all heels and skirts are bad.

I also think that in character design the artists take inspiration from the current fashion trends. I Remember seeing mangakas looking at fashion magazines to get inspired. almost all 80's 90's girls have neons clothes, glam rock hair, and mini skirts. Many of the fights and powers in the comics/mangas are so unrealistic that I understand they wanted their characters to look cool no matter the practicality. And of course, there are some fanservice motivations. But even women authors wanted their fighters to look fashionable.

I'm glad the discussion is out there, I'm sorry if you feel dismissed so far I don't think that's anyone's intention.

Well the same way I came off as completely hostile (and batshit crazy? somewhat?) to everyone, pretty much all of you came off as absolutely dismissive to me... So... we're actually okay?

It's true and I regret phrasing it like this. I know I'll never convince you, but since you seem to enjoy having a real conversation, let me try to make my point clearer (I really haven't done a good job so far)...

When you create a fictional universe, you have the liberty to make up its rules. It is your absolute right as a creator to make every fictional universe you create one where gender roles are absolutely clear and signalled through extremely gendered attire. I really do mean that. Every author has the right to make every female character wear a skirt because... they don't have to give me a reason, really.

But I also have the right as a reader to lament the lack of variety in that department, right?
If every manga and comic released in 2020 was about dragons, I would absolutely want to vent somewhere about there being too many dragons... even though I absolutely LOVE dragons.

And well... If it were only some fictional universes that forced women to show their breasts and thighs while hiding almost all skin from men... wait, maybe it is a small minority and I'm just so unlucky I keep stumbling upon video games and movies and tv shows and anime that do that... I'll admit I haven't actually done actual research and surveyed what proportion of fictional worlds exactly are forcing all or almost all female characters to wear high heels and skirts.

Happy to have hashed it out with you, and happier still you're able to clarify your point as a result. ^^

And you already know I agree that the unbalanced depiction of male and female characters sucks and needs a good shaking up! :grin:

Wow, you guys really had a whole argument about skirts and kilts and dresses and heels and stunt women and historical accuracy and who knows what else! I can't be bothered to read all that! And not only did it go on for a while, you guys actually seem to have resolved it, damn

Anyways, let's talk about main character with obviously cool design against bland, soulless npc designs! You know the ones!
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These look like the hairstyles of fine upstanding young men who will live uneventful but productive lives as businessmen. Certainly no protagonist shenanigans about to break out here!