Thoughts On Collaboration (Writers looking for artists kind of posts and vice versa)

[DeadAccount]

So, there's been a lot of posts lately where artists and writers are trying to find each other. And you know what? Collaboration is pretty great. It's rare for a person to be an amazing writer and artist all in one, and combining your strengths with someone else's can lead to incredible results. (I know D&W would never make it as a proper webcomic if I didn't join forces with an actual writer!) However, a lot of these posts just sound like unpaid job offers. So I thought I'd offer some advice to people trying to pitch their work to a potential collaborator.

As I mentioned, unpaid job offers are bad and won't get you very far. Most creative minds have personal projects of their own they'd rather invest their time in. You have to make sure your collaborator has creative input or some kind of motivation if they're joining your project. You have to consider their available time and energy, just as they will consider yours. For example, you can't just dump an update schedule on someone who just agreed to work with you for free - if you've managed to plan a complete production line for your comic, you need an employee, not a collaborator, and employees need to be paid.

Another important thing I don't see often enough around here: You need to really think of how to sell your pitch. Most people have a vague idea of who they'd like to work with, but what do they have to offer in the first place? Comic work is a massive time drain. Why is your project worth it? How would you get your writer/artist emotionally involved in this? Always show examples of your work, be it writing or art.

To sum it up, putting yourself in other people's shoes is the best way to attract a collaborator. Make it as fun for others as it is for you.

Happy collaborating!

[Kayke]

I agree that a lot of the posts I see do seem like unpaid jobs rather than collaborations. I think in order for it to be a true collaboration, the artist needs to be involved in the ideas as well as the execution. When a writer comes to the forums with a completed script with specific characters and a finished look already in their mind and just expect the artist to draw things exactly as they're asked to do, that doesn't feel like a collaboration, it feels like a job. And it's hard for a creative person to get invested in something they feel they have no control over.

As for my feeling on these posts in general... they kind of clog up the forums and I don't think I've ever seen one actually work out.

[DeadAccount]

Yeah, those people seem to think that artists don't have any ideas of their own and are just sitting there waiting for someone to give them an assignment or something?

It would be interesting to see some follow -up posts from people who do end up working together and sharing how they made it work.

I've had people sending me random scripts in the past, but I could never get invested in them, to be honest. I was way too obsessed with my own world and characters, even though I was struggling to make an actual story out of it. I was very lucky to find a writer willing to expand and build on top of what I had - it helped that we already had similar interests and sense of humour that made putting our ideas together a pretty organic process. This is why I strongly believe that collab-seekers need to share their material with the world as much as possible.

[ToonDoctor]

Excellent post! All I can add is that it's also tough for writers because they are dependent on artists for their comics to come to life. Writers should be cognizant that they may not always be in the driver's seat. Collaboration works best when both parties are complementary, enhance each others' strengths and repel weaknesses. So I'm not calling for artists to be in the driver's seat either!

[donathinfrye]

I'm currently in the process of working out a paid collaboration with an artist that I found from one of these posts. I'm a professional writer, and am pretty new to the comic book medium, but as a writer ... I know all too well the value of time and money. One thing that I think will help promote these sort of professionally aimed collaborations is a more specified route towards writing a comic for the Premium program. Things that I need to find out (which I've emailed Tapastic in regards to):

• How long should a sell-able volume for a Premium comic be?
• What pre-requisites is Tapastic looking for when they decide whether or not to license a Premium comic? Is an established fan-base important, or is it just the merits, accessibility and quality of the book itself?
• What sort of payout can be expected? Being able to budget for hiring an artist to produce a high quality book is a lot easier to do when you know what sort of returns might be expected.

As a writer (and probably the eventual promoter of a project), I need to know that I'm going to be able to turn some sort of profit on an investment. Agreeing to page rates, project length, and a production schedule is something that requires being able to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm betting, and hoping, that the Premium program will begin to make these sorts of things possible ... but right now, the publicly available information on the program is fairly unspecific. It's new, so I totally get why that is.

[gateofselidor]

The only webcomic collaborations I've seen that actually work are teams of friends who are equally invested in the story and characters, and paid jobs.

These kind of collaboration posts turn up all the time on any forums aimed at people who make comics, and they're all very similar and generally amount to nothing. I've seen people on other forums bump their posts searching for an artist for a year, two years, or longer. In that time, they probably could have learnt to draw themselves. I'm not saying people shouldn't make "looking for [x]" posts, and I know that as someone who writes and draws, it's not necessarily fair of me to condemn people looking for collaborators, but it would be nice if people put more thought into their posts, especially trying to see things from the perspective of people with the skills they need.

[Jabbage]

Most of the offers I see are from people who have a pet project in mind but lack the skills or resources to get it into comic form. Either they don't realise the work that goes into comic book pages or they misunderstand how many pages it takes to tell giant epic stories, because they expect hundreds of pages of work for free. Honestly if someone said they had a six page long script I'd be willing to check it out, but when it gets to 60 or 600, life is too short.

One kind of collaboration that I'd love to see more of on the forums are short story collections and anthologies that are genuine collabourations between artists. I know they happen because i support them on kickstarter all the time, but I'm never sure how to get INTO one short of being asked by someone who is running one.

[jacintawibowo]

Yes, I especially agree with the whole "selling your work with a good pitch" point. I don't know why artists/writers come to the forums asking for collaborations on a project without saying nearly anything about it. They tend to be super vague or "haven't written a script yet". Not a very good sign. And of course, pay your artists!! Art takes time and effort!

[Ayomekum]

yeah I hope everyone looking to collaborate sees these posts. the whole art for free thing is very unrealistic, but if a writer had an established audience and a short, manageable project i know there would be amateur artists willing to provide their services. lol once you're instagram famous people will be making art for you without you even asking

[CaptainUfo]

I have writers for my series Captain Ufo. I decided to do that because I'm not the greatest writer in the world and I'm too slow anyway, I'll never be able to keep a regular schedule if I hat to write the script too. And the moment you decide you're going to have someone else write or draw your series, you have to accept the idea that it'll never be 100% what you had in mind, but that's fine.
However in my case
a) they are friends of mine;
b) since I created the titular character and his crew, I gave them extensive documentation on who the characters are, what they do and what they want way before we actually started working togheter, so that the writers could choose if they liked the idea or not;
c) the agreement is basically "I'm not opposed to changes on the main characters as long as you're not turning them in something that's entirely different from what I want them to be and if you can convince me about that, and you can do whatever you want with the stories and any other character, as long as it doesn't clash with what the main characters are supposed to be";
d) I get to see the scripts way before I have to draw them, so we have time to discuss things if there's something that doesn't work for me (i may be convinced otherwise, it's just a matter of talking about it), and they get to see the sketches of the pages in advance, so if a scene doesn't turn out as they imagined it, I can fix that before I put too much work on the page.

It's working quite well. Especially with the writer of season two (which you haven't seen on Tapastic, yet), he managed to write a pet story of his while being spot on with my characters, and some of the new one he introduced are pretty interesting and they're probably going to become regulars in the future seasons.

[Kayke]

I thought of something I wanted to add: the only collaborations I've even considered have been from people who contacted me directly with their stories. I think finding an artist who's work you think fits the story and contacting them is a better way to go about finding an artist than just posting "ART PLEASE" threads on a bunch of different forums. It shows you care enough about your project to search for the right artist and it also shows a level of professionalism.

[donathinfrye]

This. Finding the right artist for your story, OR the right writer for your art style is going to be fundamental in your project's success.

[jaysonm1983]

I'm an Artist and i want to find someone who is good at writing a story i don't to be paid unless we get our comic sold i just want to find a story i am invested in and have fun drawing it. if you have a story,outline or script message me and we can try and get something started

[cooldude2000isaweso]

Hey I have a story i've been working on for years now, but cannot find artists who have the time to do more than concept art,
this is a link to my story: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eDoOHZfSRNNCub3NWX0J8JpYbzZ15Aq3bf0fLhwcG7U
and this is a link to a brief description of the characters https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_ODc1s2TWgK_J28Rkyt5EgSa2WwRqpR9aEhm2pAyI6g

[cooldude2000isaweso]

I only just joined and didn't know how to message jaysonm1983

[cooldude2000isaweso]

I want the art style to be minimalist like this: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/t/53a45910e4b0f9d6e7723638/1403279645915/minimalist-game-of-thrones-character-art or something like this (not good at art couldn't find the name of style): http://editorial.designtaxi.com/news-pulpart030714/2.jpg

[Cyfer_Comics]

Jayson, please contact us at cyfercomics@gmail.com immediately.
We have some ideas to go over with you.

[Cyfer_Comics]

To all the artists in this thread saying they should be paid for their work, how many of you are published artists or have art in the process of being published?

How many of the artists in this thread have had a table at ComicCon showcasing their work? How many of the artists in this thread have had more than 3 scripts given to them by professional writers and had their work publicly reviewed?

Have any of the artists in here ever made enough on an open commission to actually pay their rent with?

Then I have bad news for you. You are in the same boat as all the writers looking to collaborate with an artist.

Many artists never see their careers advance beyond the random $200 or $300 OC from sites like this or others. Artists have a tough job, and their work is undervalued. But what's even tougher is the competition in your field. There thousands - not hundreds - thousands of very, very good artists that cant even get hired by the Big 2. And of the few artists that are lucky enough to get a decent income from professional work, none of them are on here, or other similar sites saying they "should be paid". Because they are now getting paid. Because they have created portfolios. They did stuff. They got their name out there.

Quick story. I had a friend long ago who wanted to be an actor. He was convinced he had the look. He paid an agent to get glossies done, did a bunch of casting calls, etc. Never really got the results he wanted. So, one day, as he lamented his lack of career movement, I asked him if he saw the sign at the local theatre that posted a huge sign asking for people to join their free acting class. He looked at me, with anger and said "Acting class? What the heck is that gonna do for me and my career?" To make this story short, he never joined that class. He eventually moved to LA to continue chasing his dreams. And now, 20 yrs later, he is working at a bar, wondering why his career never took off.

He could have joined that class. He might have met a director. Or maybe one of the polished actors there would become a director or producer one day, and he could have used that connection later in life. He could have taken acting classes, tried Improv. But he did none of that. His talent was above all that. Working for free? Hogwash. How could that possibly help him.

He never added to his acting profile. He ended up doing some bad commercials for Taco Bell that never got picked up. He still wont try any other tactics to sharpen himself, or perhaps just for networking.

The point of all that is to say.....we are all broke, We are all here because we have talents. None of us will probably go very far, because we are all staring at each other just saying "pay me...pay me".

Like a bunch of crabs, stuck in a barrel, not realizing that some of us can actually get somewhere if we lift each other but none of us will go anywhere if we don't.

Don't be like my actor friend. He wasted his years away, wishing, now bitter because it never happened.

Work with someone, build your portfolio, network, hone your craft.
We all want to get paid. But we can get paid faster if we work.
Right now, we are all just here writing in a forum. We aren't creating anything.

[Jenny-Toons]

Yeah, I would agree with you if this was the case with most of these “Unpaid Collaboration” threads. I would agree with you if these threads talked about finding someone to work with as a partner or within a group where everyone was contributing to the idea.

Then, I would agree with you.

But in most cases, these threads that ask for a writer or an artist for free are undoubtedly vague, and fall under the lines of “if you’re interested, email me” while still being vague. How can I, as a creator, be confident in signing onto a project if I’m not giving anything to get be interested in?

This has nothing to do with if someone’s been published or have a spot at ComicCon. In any case, those are generally traditional methods of showing “that you made it”; currently, not everyone is scrambling to get published in those ways.

There are more ways to get published now, and not everyone will say those are the only ways you’ve “made it” as a creator. Some people don’t even care about being published and well-known – they just want to make money via Patreon or Paypal or some other site.

But that’s not really the main point.

This has to do with someone asking a writer or an artist to sign onto something and essentially expecting them to carry the project, and you see that a lot in some of these collaboration posts.
There’s a difference between having a few projects that were done without pay but were beneficial and just signing onto anything because “it might help me get ahead”.

They don’t specify what they’re looking for a lot of the times; they’ll specify it’s unpaid, but they don’t explain:

• If they want a partnership or not. If it’s a partnership - then yes, it makes sense they might not have a lot of scripts ready or a lot of art made because they want their partner to provide content as well. Both parties are on even grounds.

• What content they’ve created for the project already. It’s mostly “I have an idea” (which fits better for potential partnerships than finding a writer/artist to help them) – not a lot of them have scripts written out or artwork made. Rather – if they do – they’re not going to show it until someone says, “I’ll do it”.

• What can they provide if it’s not a partnership. Partnerships provide some ownership to the content. If someone is not asking for that, what can they offer to the writer/artist that’s not money? Yeah, not everyone can pay money, and that’s something we all acknowledge. But we also must acknowledge that people shouldn’t be expected to do things for free. You cannot bank on the idea of “this might help me get ahead”. You have to know for sure that you want to do this for fun or that this is beneficial to you in the long run (career-wise or personal).

The ones that do get picked? They did the opposite of these problems.

They were specific, they explained the whys and hows, and they allowed the writer/artist to be part of the creative process instead of asking for an employee.

And yes, those were unpaid as well, but they allowed the creator to feel like they were part of the project – to the point where they didn’t care that they weren’t being paid.

At the end of the day, yeah – most people in these forums can’t afford to pay for a writer or an artist. And most people here understand that (and most who do have a few projects and experiences under their belt). But at the same time, because we understand that, we have to make sure that these are projects we want to sign on and that people are more willing to do partnerships than looking for employees for free .

We still live in an age where any experience is better than no experience. But we also live in an age where people more cautious about these things. We don’t just accept anything now – we ask questions, we negotiate, and we sell our work. More importantly, we make sure this is something we want to sign up on.

You don't already have to be published or well-known to know say "I'm not feeling it", and it's changes a lot so it's not like that.

Yeah, take on some free projects, but have a balance and know when it's a good investment for yourself.

Because the worst thing that could happen with projects like these is the feeling of wasting your time and the other party’s time. And that’s no fun at all.

[SleepingPoppy]

Working for free? Hogwash. How could that possibly help him.

Well he wasn't being asked to work for free, was he? He passed up classes where people with knowledge of his field could have taught him valuable skills. Thats not a very good metaphor for a collaboration. If a stranger in the class approached him to act for free in their 0 budget project, now THAT is an unpaid collaboration.

And you know what? If he wanted to do that collab with a peer, cool. And if he doesn't? At least he's taking the class and learning. Maybe he'll get to know someone he does want to work with.

The point of all that is to say.....we are all broke, We are all here because we have talents. None of us will probably go very far, because we are all staring at each other just saying "pay me...pay me"

A lot of us are actually saying "Rather than work for you for free, I have a project I'm already working on without pay while working a full time job. If you want me to stop that or take on farther commitments, I need a reason." And good reasons for that? Examples of writing that appeals to the artist, or payment for the service being requested.