Too Big to Criticize...?

[DokiDokiTsuna]

So, uh...last year I wrote a review on a manga I read. It was a very negative review....it's hardly an exaggeration to say that I ripped the artist to shreds. I really gave 'em what for... ^^;

But I didn't know who the artist was...until now. And let's just say they're pretty well-respected in the industry... I've heard their name before lots of times, and I'm not even really into manga (I've probably read less than 20 complete manga series in my lifetime).

This makes me feel...embarrassed. And I know it shouldn't...the fact that someone is famous doesn't mean that I can't dislike what they do. But the feeling won't go away...part of me actually wants to go back to that manga and look it over again, to try to find the genius that I, ignorant slob that I am, must have overlooked...

I wouldn't feel so wrong if I'd just mildly disliked their work, but I really hated it. I didn't think they were a bad artist or anything, but I certainly thought they were the wrong artist for the content. I even went as far as saying that "this doesn't deserve to be anyone's first experience of the [seriesname] story"...how could I have reacted so badly to someone who's supposed to be so good?? Cognitive dissonance at its finest, ladies and gents...

Anyway, has anyone else had an experience like this, where you "accidentally" hated on someone who is apparently lightyears ahead of your level??

[KRWright]

I don't think it's bad to criticize big names as long as it's valid. It seems like your criticism was pretty valid. I mean, take the biggest authors and you'll still see a bunch of one-star reviews for them from people who either didn't 'get' their work or who it didn't appeal to.

Also, it's just as important to be critiqued even as a 'big name'. If you don't recieve those critiques, you can't improve and no one is above improvement.

So yeah, I have critiqued ON PURPOSE people who are massive names if I think their writing, art or vision was flawed and I don't think that it shows any kind of cognitive dissonance. It just means that whatever they created was something that I felt had a few negatives to it and that those should perhaps be talked about and addressed.

[Kelheor]

I don't think it's anything bad, big doesn't equal good! Just look at the infamous 50 shades of.... and I really wonder what was that manga you read. Especially looking at how many mangakas are drawing one manga series for 30 years, having more and more hiatuses, and clearly don't know that to do further with the plot, many readers start to hate on their otherwise favourite works too.

But you know, it's the "I don't think they were the right artist for the content" part that is bothering me.
Even though I understand what you may mean with this words, they really sting me in the heart, because I always think that I am that artist, that is not suitable for the content I make. So as I am not this big author, if I will ever read those words about my art, it would probably send me to a nice depressive state. No matter what you think, it's still their work. Someone probably could make it better, but there is no one - it's their child, even if they are bringing up that child poorly.

In the end, everything is very subjective. It's not bad to criticize people, who are better or famous than most of us in some field. And one author could never appeal to everyone

[ericsalinas149]

I once ragged one of Christopher Grady's comics 'Lunarbaboon' when he started on GoComics. He had become well known on reddit or somewhere but was still unknown in some other venues and I didn't know the comic well back then (this was about 3 or 4 years ago). The comic was about germs waiting 5 seconds before they attack a piece of mortal that fell to the floor. This was before he found his voice. I mocked that I already seen the idea in a FB meme. He wrote back that he didn't copy the idea. Which is probably very true. What is the term, parallel thinking? Anyways, it got me to thinking about my own comic and about 40% of my comics are a rip-off of memes or online quotes. So it was highly hypocritical on my part. That's why I try not to write negative things on the comment section. If I dislike a comic, I bottle up my opinions and just keep scrolling.

For the record, I don't dislike 'Lunarbaboon'.

[Freemints30]

There is nothing too big to criticize and I genuinely hate that mentality that some creators have when as soon as they have a following they believe their too big for a critique from so called "lesser authors". Those people eventually have a pretty nasty fall from grace once they become known for that shitty behavior cough cough Tom Preston*cough*. As for the manga you are taking about thou the the artist is well respected doesn't mean he couldn't have a dud here or there, and the manga may be one of those duds. Not every thing needs to have hidden meaning or genius. Some times the curtains are yellow in a book are simply due to the author liking yellow curtains.

As for that feeling, very often and its never "accidentally", I don't care how popular you are not if I think your work sucks, I think sucks I will say it.

[ble]

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[punkarsenic]

lightyears ahead of your level??

i feel like this is a problem that crops up when youre working in the field youre criticising; if youre a writer, critiquing tolkein gets difficult because Youre Not Tolkien. how is a painter supposed to crit picasso? who do they think they are??

but critique is a really important skill, and everyone has flaws, plus theres all that subjective stuff. if youre able to look at a piece of work made by someone significantly more experienced than you and properly evaluate it - see the flaws, see the merits, see the stuff you wouldnt do, imo thats an important part of developing your taste, style, and eye as a creative.

that said, i really feel you. when i do reviews on letterboxd or goodreads i need to really push myself to not give into the peer pressure of the rating a film 'should' get based on the creator, the works reputation, or general consensus. but forcing myself to stick to my guns and give the cabinet of caligari a 3.5 makes me take my own experiences with media seriously. if you just assume that these more experienced artists just know something you dont, it makes it easier to not properly engage with the work, and rather youre left shrugging and saying 'well, its a classic. i must just be stupid.' you aint. some shits overrated, and everything has flaws. (caligari isnt overrated ftr. i just didnt enjoy it a tremendous deal)

that said, i kinda feel more secure criticizing bigger creators. like, if everyone loves shakespeare then im a bit cheeky and anti establishment when i say hamlet drags (though its more that kenneth branagh drags), and nobody gets hurt. criticising creators more 'on my level' is a lot more dangerous, emotionally. but neil gaiman, steven spielberg, jk rowling? they got money, they dont care.

[vothnthorvaldson]

I can see how 'too small to criticize' can be a problem, but the contrary?

If there are that big, they must have plenty of support. So no moral issue here.

If they are big.. it does not mean they are good for you. It does not even mean they are good AT ALL as an artist. They may be good at following trends, at marketing etc.. But let's take the case where the artist is not bad per se. If you are not sensitive to their specific works, you'll see more the flaws, that any artist, even the best, has (especially in comics where you have to have so many varied skills).
Actually I think your critique as someone who doesn't like the work is very valuable, if it's constructive. Maybe not for the artist of that comic, as it's unlikely they would read it, but for any other artist reading the critique.

[ble]

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[vynru73]

I don't think you're ever not allowed to criticize and artist, even if your own skill is far below the artist's skill. Everyone is a reader, so I think you can always critique stuff as a reader/consumer. I actually think that could be more valuable in a way, because this artist makes their work for readers to read, not other artists. For example, if I want someone to critique my own comic, I'd much rather show it to a reader than to a fellow artist, because both of those will notice different things, and you want to optimize your comic for its message to carry over to readers specifically, and for it to be enjoyable for said readers. The best advice I get, almost always comes from non-artists, except for just one of my artist friends. So yeah, the best advice/critique, in my experience, tends to come from "the ignorant slobs", if I may use your words.

On a side note, if you haven't read a lot of manga, that also means you haven't read a lot of bad manga, and your standards haven't been lowered yet

[Reign]

I think it’s okay to criticize and review, no matter the skill level. I just think it becomes a problem if the criticizer tears down and hurts someone’s confidence. (Not saying you did that.) I know there are things we don’t like, and I find myself hating on a lot of stuff, like the Emoji Movie. Which I find hard to watch because I don’t enjoy if for many reasons. But I’m starting to ask the question: how do we critique and not do it negatively? Ultimately everyone can create something, but does that make it’s right to tear them down emotionally and verbally? (Again, this isn’t pointing fingers at you. I haven’t seen your review.) I guess the only time to shut something down is if it’s down right evil and malicious.

[StrangeVision]

Look at big time western comic artists. The legendary Rob Liefeld, always roasted for his goofy anatomy and design choices. Greg Land the porn tracer. Frank Miller who's drawings have gone downhill in his old age. No one's too big to criticize, in any genre or medium.

[charliesackett]

I have a book blog where I read critically acclaimed classic literature and (usually) tear it a new asshole. I strongly believe that just because a lot of people say it's good doesn't mean it's actually good. It's important to have the other argument made. If people are only ever told they're great and they can do no wrong then their work suffers. If we all pretend stuff is good because it's made by someone famous then we're perpetuating a culture of elitism and bullshit. It's best if we all just stay honest.

[nixxusnibelheim]

Ooof, I've had a recent debate with few friends about a similar subject.

Basically I was saying that us as a consumer when we critic something (sometime harshly), we ONLY blame the creators behind the said work without looking at ourselve.

Every flaws must be because the authors are incompetent...even though they have way more experience than the regular joe. (Not to say that they are perfect but they do understand the in and out of the creative process, the challenges, the expectations etc, factors that not a lot of people are aware of.)

We never take a look at ourselve and think maybe we are in the wrong. The story may have done everything right but we still misread the whole thing.

We act entitled to like everything and we, for some reason put our opinion as only truth while we don't take into account that the casual consumers are inexperience. It's like a kid saying candy is more healthy than fruits because it tastes better.

I guess to go back to your situation.
Not every flavors should be in your taste and it's okay, we are not supposed to like everything.
That doesn't mean the said manga/anime suck. It just mean it wasn't for you or you didn't have enough experience to really understand it.
If you didn't like the manga in the first place, it's perfectly fine. You don't have to force yourself, to read it back just because it's from a big name.
But if you do feel like you misjudge the manga because of x y and z, definitely give it another run.

[borzoiteeth]

Anything and everything should be allowed to be critiqued. However one needs to be careful of works that are in "Sacred Cow" status. Works or people that for whatever reason are supported by a group that worship said thing. To point out any negative factor must mean you are a troll or "don't get it".

I've had some very interesting clashes with these kinds of people, "Why do you hate series/character??" for them to be shocked that no, I love said character/series. Goodness, no series is perfect. I love critiquing, especially series I love.

Not knowing how you wrote your critique, I can't help judge if there is any "cognitive dissonance" in play. But I will bring up something I notice a lot of critics forget to do when designing their critique- is knowing the difference between legit bad craft vs actually not being the target audience. People have brought up Twilight a few times here- lets use that as an example.

Most critiques for Twilight have valid issues brought up- but are actually poor in design because Twilight was firstly made to be a simple (regardless of how tasteless we think it is) love story. Yes, the author's wrote a gross, abusive relationship but it was also clearly written to not care about that. A real critique would bring up the plot holes of what the author wrote in world to say what mattered and then changed their mind about (ex: established that vampires and humans can't have children but throw that out the window for more easy drama). Its unfair to critique Twilight for not being a proper "role model" story when that was never its goal. Its clearly a guilty-pleasure work and that's how it should be judged.

If that sounded too weird here's another example- you would not critique an abstract painting saying its flaws are because its not realistic enough. What you want vs the goals of the piece are clearly very different.

Since you mentioned dissonance there is also to account for time/culture. There are a lot of works I love that have aged POORLY. This is neither the fault of the audience nor the creator. No one can be responsible for being aware of what life was before or what it is going to be.

[unknown_user]

In my opinion, there are a lot of great, talented and extremely skilled artist and writers, who are doing extremely stupid, cliched, pitiful content. I suppose, that they could do really wonderful things, but they are doing stupid mainstream shit instead, just because it's paid much more.
This is how I see it.
Who am I to condemn such an authors? Everyone sometimes do things they don't like for money. But it doesn't prevent me from condemning the product itself, even if I think that the author isn't bad.

[unknown_user]

A little off topic:

Anything and everything should be allowed to be critiqued.

Besides religion. If you will criticise religion, you will be labeled as "intolerant asshole", and in some countries even will be punished by the law.

[Pomms]

I don't think you are wrong in making your own critique of things. Whenever you put something out there, it is no longer belongs to you, but to the people - and therefore it is subject to critique.

Also, just because something is iconic, doesn't mean you have to like it. I've read some of those so called "timeless classics" and I didn't like many of them.

[borzoiteeth]

Besides religion. If you will criticise religion, you will be labeled as "intolerant asshole", and in some countries even will be punished by the law.

Your critique is going after a different goal than my post (which was likely my fault with my poorly written English) which was, "One should not feel bad for having a negative opinion towards a beloved thing. Here are some tools to double check yourself in case you are not sure of your personal standing".

Discussing if one has permission or how to talk around being in a censored culture is a different discussion. Because its more than religion. Where I studied you couldn't critique a teacher to their face about their profession -no matter how departed from religion it was- if want to make sure you could get a job let alone not get ostracized from the community.

[Wumbl]

Following =/= skill.
What others think shouldn't influence your opinion.

As long as you're not making others feel bad for liking something, negatively reviewing something popular is completely normal and fine. Nobody should ever feel guilty for not liking something popular.