Oct 2022
37 / 50
Oct 2022
Dec 2022
Im_moron
Oct '22
candiedcotton

I think once I get around to redrawing my first chapter, I'm probably gonna go back and revise some of panels in CH3 of my comic (Seeing my pen stabilization being too high in these panels + contrast, and a LOT of advice I got here and learning things now working on CH1).

Especially that panel right there! At least what I'm getting here is just something about how I drew the characters that just doesn't look appealing in that chapter, or that it just looks a little amateurish. I'll admit I did rush these panels and it shows.

For a panel of a guy getting crushed and dying by a bunch of cages, I could do a bit more to really convey the brutality of that. I mean, for a panel like THAT I should have gone hard!

I'll still consider a lot of the feedback you gave there, I wouldn't mind just taking that extra elbow grease to draw individual fingers or proper hand structure if it's important (like that panel if the focus is just a hand, yeah, I can agree with that).

thepenmonster
Oct '22
candiedcotton

critique is telling someone what needs to be fixed

Yes. And then the critique giver does the rest of the job so it matters.

You're not being attacked for offering your opinion and giving some basic advice. But it should be obvious that it was inadequate for what Moron needed.

darthmongoose
Oct '22
Im_moron

This anatomy looks decent to me. The poses read clearly, there's a sense of volume and depth, and there seems to be a consistent, stylisation that works. The one of the hand/claw is a bit rough, like when you're doing a close-up of a hand or claw as a focal point, you maybe need to give it a little more time or an extra try or two.

Still... overall this figure drawing looks good enough that it wouldn't put somebody off like the levels issue or messiness.

I don't know if CandiedCotton will agree... and I'm not trying to get into an argument here, because I'm sure CC is coming from a place of wanting you to improve and clearly believes very passionately that strong anatomical drawing skill is a foundational element of being a good comic artist.
My personal opinion is that the most important thing for being a good comic artist is clarity. The thing we should all strive towards is the ability for the reader, at a glance, to understand what place, object, action or emotion we were trying to portray. Becoming better at anatomical drawing and perspective to apply that to poses, gestures and expressions in order to better convey what's happening is of course a good general thing a comic artist should always be doing, and putting a little extra care into how we precisely draw a pose, expression or gesture to make sure it reads as intended is important.

So my personal take is to keep working on your anatomy and perspective... but as part of a general quest to be able to clearly draw things that "read as intended". Which honestly is something all of us should be doing all the time!

I'd definitely recommend an excellent book on this subject called "Drawn To Life volume 1" by Walt Stanchfield. If you can get hold of a copy (even by requesting it at your local library) it could be a big help. That and obviously "Making Comics" by Scott McCloud, which actually has a bunch of sections touching on elements of exactly the discussion happening in this thread.

IndigoShirtProd
Oct '22
thepenmonster

I don't think it's up to a critic to teach a person how to improve whatever they are critiquing. They can give them actionable advice, pointing them in the direction of where to go or what to use to get better, but giving them detailed instructions on what to do next is not their job. Should they elaborate on how to improve, sure, but everyone critiques differently.

Critiquing is not only teaching, though it can sometimes be, it's merely giving informed suggestions and opinions. Most critics don't even have the qualifications to teach another person in the first place.

Lastly, because most critiques are suggestions on how to improve, if someone does not want to listen to a critique they've gotten, no matter how accurate it is to their situation, they don't have to take any of it on.

thepenmonster
Oct '22

A critic is a consumer advocate. They offer advice on you how to spend your entertainment hours and money. It's what Roger Ebert did.

What people have been giving Moron (Jaysus, this handle...) are opinions and advice. This is not critique.

Anyway, if anyone wants to keep trying to turn this into a fight, I dunno, tell it to your moms. I'm not repeating myself anymore.

IndigoShirtProd
Oct '22

Well, I never implied that critics were not consumer advocates; you're correct, they are. I'm just disagreeing with you on the point that critics are teachers and I also disagree with you on the assertion that critiques are not opinions and advice. Even the most informed and educated critics, especially in something like the arts, are primarily giving their opinion. I'm not trying to argue with you, and if you don't want to respond that's fine, I'm just disagreeing with you.

Im_moron
Oct '22
darthmongoose

On my phone

Yeah, I do feel that my response was a bit on the cheeky side, but I do see where CC is coming from, and I'm gonna keep an open mind about it.

I mean heck, I agree with some of CCs opinions on specific panels too. I guess that's the power of asking questions/elaboration.

I do have making comics on my desk! Guess now is a good time to read it again. I'll def look into Drawn to Life v1 too! Can't hurt to get more books that teach you more about comics tbh.

Im_moron
Oct '22
1
IndigoShirtProd

It's a tiny bit off topic, but I'll give it a shoot.

I'll be completely honest, I think anyone's honest feedback has some merits to it, regardless of if it's "good" or "bad" criticism. It certainly is REALLY nice to offer suggestions or advice if you can as a critic, but I personally don't think it's the definitive trait of good criticism. I think good criticism is just being able to clearly communicate your opinions on what you like and don't like about a piece. That and finding a good balance between being respectful, supportive and being honest if the person really needs to hear it (some people want to hear the cold truth like me, some people really can't handle tough love and it's REALLY not a good idea to aim for their ego either, because that could just cause the person to lose confidence and just give up.)

That said, I think the point of taking feedback as an artist is to just be a really good listener, hearing multiple sources of feedback, and at least for my personal opinion, just trusting your gut instinct and taking risks if you really believe something could work or be interesting. I mean, there must be something that one finds deeply interesting to make them wanna spend hours to write a story or draw it and post it online with the risk of ridicule. Why would you take feedback that tells you to go against something you know is interesting, EVEN if it technically does have good reasoning behind it? (Ex: Stan Lee's publisher saying that no one thinks teenagers can be superheroes, superheroes can't concern themselves with petty personal problems and people HATE spiders, no way this "spiderman" can be a banger.)

I can't expect everyone to be perfect at communicating their thoughts, I also can't expect to please everyone either, but I think it would be irresponsible for me to not at least hear people at all. Like that's why Cherry picking is bad, not because you're picking feedback that you like (sometimes certain feedback is really not helpful), but it's specifically because you're not listening to any negative feedback.

Inversely, I think it's completely valid for the CRITIC to not expect everyone to take their feedback either, no one is really at fault here. Ideally the critic gives well communicated feedback and or the artist/writer listens and also communicates back with the critic too and both of them can come up with a good direction to move forward (critics can come up with BETTER feedback once they hear context behind certain decisions by the artist).

I've had trusted critics with a good reputation I've paid for tell me that I shouldn't listen to all their advice despite their experience (because I was too much of a people pleaser, and he had basically told me that I can't please everyone), and I've had the best criticism from someone who basically just said "this looks weird" and they don't need a masters degree in art to say that. Sometimes I feel weird about a drawing but I'm not sure if it's just my inner critic being illogical until someone else points it out too.

Finally, sometimes people just can't think of a solution, that's okay. Some drawings just come out weird and you have to pick between just moving forward or going back to redo it.

So ye.

darthmongoose
Oct '22

To give the perspective of a critic, and to bring the conversation back to the thread title to some extent...

There's a consistent issue on Tapas communities (the forums, discord, other unofficial discords...) of people frustrated about their work's performance and stubbornly believing that the reason is literally anything but their own writing, drawing or presentation. They'll blame it on their genre being wrong, but refuse to target other platforms or make changes to appeal more to the audience here, they'll ask for tips on promotion even though they're already promoting widely and just as much as anyone else, they'll blame it on Tapas choosing not to feature them, but make no suggested changes that would make the staff more likely to do so... and then other people with the same mindset will jump into the conversation to agree; "yeah, success on Tapas is mostly about luck", "Oh yeah, if you don't draw manga style BL it's impossible".

It's not only completely unhelpful to the person because there are actually plenty of things most people with an underperforming comic on Tapas could do to fix the issue in most cases... but it's also kind of insulting to those of us who have got higher sub counts or contracts or have been featured, because it perpetuates an idea that we're just lucky, when the truth is, we usually work hard and go the extra mile on attention to detail in our art, storytelling and presentation.

So even though yeah, it's frustrating that CandiedCotton and I disagree on what the core issue is with this comic, I know that we're both coming from the same place here, and it's a place of irritation that somebody isn't coming anywhere close to matching our level of effort, and then brings up the idea that maybe it's just bad luck. I'm fairly sure CC and I probably feel pretty much the same way about this, and it's "...seriously?"

For me, it's "...Seriously? I spent days agonising over what font to use and even my line spacing and did test runs sending the pages to view on my phone to make sure they were readable, and sometimes I do multiple thumbnails for any given panel or page to make sure what's happening is clear, and I ran through a bunch of style and colour tests before even making my first page... and the person making this comic that's literally unintelligible because it's so dark and the panels frequently don't depict what's happening so much as allude to it in an abstract way thinks maybe I get more attention because of luck!?" :eyebrows:

And I imagine for CC, it's a similar feeling, but about the sloppy, rushed anatomy, because if you look at CC's comics... yes, there is a lot of effort being put into the anatomy and making it look good, trying to make sure the figures have depth and realistic musculature etc. And it's also very obviously an area Candied has been working super-hard on improving between "The Silence" and "Life and Death" (with good results! :hype_01:). I think given how much work has been put in, it's easy to sympathise with feeling kind of pissed off to see it dismissed as "maybe success is all just luck" :sweat_02:.

Because it needs to be said here: The people giving advice in this thread aren't just critics. We're creators who have had more success at doing the thing you're trying to do and struggling to find the success you want at. We're not doing critique to let buyers make an informed choice about what webcomic to read, we're more doing two things:
1. Help you achieve your goal by giving you realistic, actionable advice so you can benefit from our experience, past mistakes and shared knowledge base.
2. Dispel an annoyingly pervasive myth that success on Tapas is based primarily in luck (it's not. It's largely polished presentation that sells an entertaining sounding concept and having a series that makes a strong first impression) that insults the hard work we put in every week (and usually a lot of planning work beforehand. I spent months on Errant before a single page went up).

In pretty much every case where a work underperforms on Tapas, there's a reason, and people who will happily help you get to the bottom of it if you just ask... which OP has, and that's awesome. :coffee_love:

candiedcotton
Oct '22

Really appreciate this and I totally agree with everything you've said.

I just wasn't sure how to word a response at this point without it coming off offensive to people and providing nothing useful for OP, which is the end game, of course. I realize I'm not very good at wording things in a sensitive way and while I do try and mean the best, communication is just something I struggle with.

Im_moron
Oct '22

Honestly, I can't help but say thank y'all for the feedback and advice that has been given me!

I had a lot of words to say, but I think just one really cements my feelings about this statment.... based.

Worst communities used to be hard on me and not consider that I sometimes have a hard time communicating my feelings or opinion, or that I often misuse words. I can't really get mad at you if I don't initially understand what you say! At least this is why I ask for questions or elaborate because communication goes both ways. Better that then to assume things.

But yeah, If it's not clear, I will still take your advice on anatomy or at least apply anatomy when it's important (I mean, I plan on drawing ripped men in the future :laughing:), especially if it's to make certain scenes look professional!

14 days later
SpookyLocker
Oct '22

tapas has a problem of to many creators and not enough readers, webtoon has more readers so I highly suggest branching out in both

sams_cartoon_shack
Nov '22

Webtoon also has the issue of oversaturation where you won't get any visibility by platform unless you're really lucky enough to have an editor stumble upon your series and choose it as a staff pick.

darthmongoose
Nov '22

Yeah, it's not really true that Tapas has more of an issue with audience size compared to number of works than Webtoon. Webtoon has a bigger audience and also more works, but even less space devoted to features, so it can be harder to get seen on.

The main difference between Tapas and Webtoon is you can potentially "beat the system" on webtoon through techniques like saving up a bunch of updates to spam during a canvas event, or making a comic in a small genre like "superhero", so comics that aren't particularly polished or aren't in a trendy genre may well have a bigger readership on Webtoon, especially if they're built around something "high concept" or have a good "elevator pitch" premise. Successful webtoon creators often try cheesy tactics like launching a high concept comic and then dumping it if it's not blown up within the first couple of months and launching a new one.

Tapas meanwhile is a lot more curated and succeeding on Tapas means working within the system, so if you focus on polished presentation and try to make something at least somewhat appealing to the platform's core audience (mostly Women aged around 20), you have good odds of getting seen and boosted by the staff, even if the concept isn't as easy to sell in a few words. Slow and steady growth is more viable on Tapas, even if the numbers generally won't be as huge as a big webtoon (the pay at the top end can still be good though, especially if the work has an engaged audience on Patreon too).

So if we imagine it in print comic terms:

Attack on Titan would do better on Webtoon. The manga was rough looking but with a really punchy story concept and a big opening, and it could go in a genre like Horror or Action and stand out there.

Lumberjanes would do better on Tapas. It's a weird concept to sell, very character-focused and gets going slowly, but with a strong, consistent visual "brand", and the core audience is young women. It would probably go into LGBTQ+ and perform pretty well.

Im_moron
Nov '22
SpookyLocker

Oh heck, this thread is alive again asdfg

I have posted on WT, my Girlfriend (and editor whose heavily familiar with WT) said that there's something up with the first chapter that drops view retention (prologue was redrawn on the release of WT and people really got a lot of interest there, but it dropped after). I've been working on a redraw of CH1 and I've taken feedback from people on this thread and my GF to make sure the reading experience is as good as possible, both to be very readable, have a more appealing artstyle that doesn't stray too far from the overall comic and make better setups for foreshadowing or redo things I felt could have been better.

I don't think I want to redraw the WHOLE comic, but I feel a better start would do wonders and set up a better expectation for readers to care more (especially since chapter 1 has terrible paneling too).

I'm also planning around expanding on Tumblr too but I'd have to get around to a method of reformating the pages (or reading more tumblr comics) to get it right.

But yeah, to not ramble on. I've tried expanding on WT but it's not a good long-term solution, because I have to up the standards for chapter 1, even if the readers really are more interactive on WT than on Tapas, they just don't find the clustered panels, and the artstyle very appealing. I could expand to a million other platforms, but it won't do much until I at least address some fundamental issues with my comic.

Im_moron
Nov '22
sams_cartoon_shack

I'll be completely honest here, having been on tapas for a very very long time, I think tapas is a little more oversaturated but that's me. Regardless, as Darth has stated before, and I agree with them it's really not luck, and it's a disservice to artists who did get staff picks to say it is.

Those artists on WT who got their series picked up are like, actually really good artists and writers, I mean I actually was the first readers for a couple of TAPAS comics before they hit staff picks and even before they get picked up by Webtoons (I'm the Glookies guy in the Four Leaf comments). They're either already well-established artists or they're just that good and work that hard.

abigaillmartin
Nov '22
Zugaikotsu

You make a fair fair point. I never considered all the fierce competition when releasing my comics. In my experience, just don’t be afraid to put yourself out there!

darthmongoose
Nov '22

If it makes you feel better, I have like... less than a hundred subs on Webtoon and have barely managed to claw my way up to a rating of around 6 (I suspect I got rating bombed by a group of people early on) and it hasn't stopped me from getting over 2000 subs on Tapas, being invited to the Creator Bonus Program and running a successful Kickstarter to print my comic, as well as having earned hundreds of dollars so far in ad revenue and ink.

Not doing well on one platform doesn't mean you're totally screwed. Some people don't do well on Tapas or Webtoon but are killing it somewhere unexpected like twitter, some people have almost no online following but are really successful in print.

Keep working hard to polish and improve your comics, and keep trying new opportunities and avenues to find where your audience is! :coffee_love:

1 month later

closed Dec 2, '22

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