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Oct 2022

INTRODUCTION
Hello, I'm I'm_a_moron (yes, not a typo lmao) and I've been a webcomic creator on tapas since 2015.

This is mainly a discussion thread about a thing I've noticed and it both makes me feel catharsis but also a little uneasy. It's in regard to working on webcomics and my struggle as a webcomic artist (and with RSD (Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria)). I will come off as gloating or a little bit prideful, I just want to share my honest feelings about this. I'm generally a very humble person, and I've struggled with being too hard on myself sometimes. Like I was once even given advice to straight up listen to my gut if I know something I thought of is good.

Are we.... DOOMED (Ones)???
Have you ever worked so hard on a comic for so long, but your viewership just doesn't grow? Like you just kind of post into empty space, and maybe you'll get one or two comments that show reader engagement, but otherwise nothing. Like people aren't just interested?

Some episodes you upload will just have NO COMMENTS or maybe one like. Sure it gets views, or maybe readers are just silent, but it's still pretty discouraging as it doesn't show many signs of interest, especially if you put a lot of work into it.

I don't have an answer or solution for this, I just wanna shine a light on this and discuss it, because I actually don't wanna give up on my comic or make all this effort actually worth something. Maybe come up with a solution, because whatever I'm doing clearly isn't working.

I've been working on my comic, Doomed One(s)25 for 6+ years, and I've seriously tried making it the best comic I can make, but very few readers stick to it. I know some of it is due to my early pages (which I am redrawing as we speak) being not up to par or reflecting the actual tone or art style of my comic (as well as the hook for the comic by the premise alone, I KNOW there is an audience for a villain story, oh with all those villain playlists I've been getting on my yt recommendations).

Maybe it's just I don't have the chops when it comes to lore (well, my friends love the lore actually), or maybe I'm just not that good of a writer (Can't tell, maybe my writing style is just too confusing or something) or I'm not that good enough as an artist (idk, what do you think of these cover/screenshots from both published and current but unpublished art?)


(yes, this is me lowkey promoting my comic lmaooo)

Regardless, I'm still getting those occasional 1-2 likes per page at some point. I didn't intend to make Doomed One(s) to get big and make money off of comics. I was just a high school kid who wanted to make comics. I'm now in my mid-20s and it feels that although I have gone far in my art skills, after 6 freaking years, you would expect at least a dozen people to care right? I've tried everything and I'm still trying, redrew my comic (redrawing its first pages AGAIN), animated my comic, and I'm even been working on some music on the tapas side of things (well, before Tapas removed Soundcloud playback RIIIP). I've even paid for promotions and feedback from reviewers I like and trust.

The Drew that no one sew
This whole topic came up when I was watching Drew Gooden's video with my GF of him watching a Ninja Masterclass on becoming a twitch streamer1 and it was pretty funny, but what completely blew my mind was a segment in the video where Drew tries to make a twitch account and stream. The twist being, that he doesn't promote it at ALL, and he doesn't tell people about his alternative twitch account for a month or something like that, basically starting on the same playing field as everyone else.

And although Drew clearly has the humor and the experience to get recognized on twitch, heck, even the possible facial recognition because people might go "hey, that's Drew Gooden!"

NADDA! He tries by streaming for a total runtime of 40 hours across the month, and even a 24-hour stream, and he doesn't even take off. At most he has one active viewer who talks in chat, and like one visitor who was like in chat "Heh" and left.

He complains about despite how much effort he puts into trying to get his twitch account (although by tone, half of it is joking, but the other half is genuine), he gets nothing but cold water.

I know twitch is so different from Tapas or Webtoons, but I can't help but find it scary. What's scary to me, is how similar his experience is to mine, putting all this effort and passion into your work to the public and getting nothing, and the thing is, Drew Gooden very clearly has the chops and is literally like a youtube celeb, but NO ONE recognizes it because they didn't give his twitch stream a chance.

It's kind of cathartic to know, that maybe I'm just not bad at webcomics, but it's just THAT hard to grow an audience unless you have the skill, luck, AND connections. My viewership doesn't reflect the actual quality of my work, but I still can't help but feel like this kind of sucks, actually.

Like imagine having talent and the drive to actually get recognized, but don't.

This reminds me quite a bit of DC Showcase: Death and the story of the artist who never got recognized until his very last moments when he paints a piece that people actually notice because of its significance. I recommend looking it up on youtube, it's really interesting.

Conclusion?
Hell if I know, honestly, are there ways to grow an audience or make connections that matter? How do you get people to actually care about your work and engage with it? I know there are promotions on Tapas forums, but they never really feel like they're that good of an impact. Do you also struggle with this sort of cold-water viewership? (Artists/Writers SUPPORT EACH OTHER!)

I'm currently dealing with burnout, and I have to try something else.

Also, read my comic lmao (feel free to post your comic link too after your reply, but I want a discussion, so please just don't your comic link without a response!)

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    Oct '22
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It's hard. As somebody who has managed to scrape a modest following (not enough that it pays my bills or anything, but enough that my comic makes a bit of money on the side) the one thing I'll say about modern webcomics is that they're not like old webcomics at all.

Old Webcomics were like... you could pretty much upload something about any subject and in any style, and so long as it looked half decent, had a few good jokes or a nice concept or atmosphere, looked good on a monitor, you might get some following if you did a few banner swaps on websites, and if you had about 2000 readers, your webcomic would probably pay your rent.

Modern webcomics are a brutal, crushing attention economy where your comic needs a brand, it needs to launch right out the gate with professional-level polished art and presentation and a really strong story hook established in the first few pages, it needs to be marketed regularly and to the right people and with promotional assets that look well-designed and... It's hard.

The drawing itself isn't bad, but the contrast throughout your comic (even on the cover) is way too low; there are a lot of really similar dark tones and half the panels I can't actually see what's happening (like this episode16. I literally cannot see what's happening). I think you need to calibrate your monitor brightness, maybe getting help from a friend, or comparing on a phone set to "auto brightness". This lack of readability would immediately put me off reading your comic, and overall it makes it look more amateurish than your drawing skill ought to.

Your hand written text (and honestly, I'm sorry, but a lot of the inking on the art) looks sloppy and rushed like you just left the pen stabilisation on too high, and didn't press undo and redo parts that came out floppy looking or not clearly defining a shape; just left them. Or like there'll be a tail left where you lifted the stylus but you didn't take the care to just quickly rub it out with an eraser to neaten it up. If you're going to present something to the public that represents the best you can do, it needs to actually be the best you can do, and that means going back and carefully making sure it looks tidy.

Webcomics are really competitive, so if you want to compete, you're going to have to raise your game, because the people who are earning money are putting in a lot more effort than you into making their comics easy to read, making their presentation look tidy and finished, giving their comics a clear brand identity and publicising it widely and regularly. It's hard work and tiring, but that's the honest truth of what's required to build an audience, and it goes double if you're outside of popular genres like Romance or Isekai Fantasy (and going for a Homestuck style thing, but where people actually have to leave the comic and go to youtube for certain parts is going to be a really hard sell, you're going to need to basically work twice as hard to sell this as a more accessible comic that doesn't ask readers to do things like that).

I'd strongly recommend you spend a bit of time sorting out the contrast balance of your comic, learning how to make speech bubbles that aren't just the default oval tool, sorting out the panel spacing, reading books or tutorials on typography and just generally looking at all these little "attention to detail" things about comic creation. Your actual drawing is fine, but your sloppy presentation is bringing the whole thing down, which if you want an audience in such a competitive medium, you just can't get away with these days.

I say the following with a complete relatability to your feelings: it's the art.

I've been in the business of commissioning art and trying to make a living on it for over two decades, and during most of that my art frankly wasn't good enough to draw the attention/interested/following that I needed to establish myself.

These days the art is probably decent enough, but I'm such a social hermit that my lack of skills in social media stunts my ability to promote my work and I still really don't have much following (nor would I know what to do with it).

But you're at the point where the art just needs a lot of work in order to get interest. Most people, being very honest, will not even bother to read the story at all because the art is simply not of the quality to get their attention. They'll glance at the first page, note the art, and leave abruptly.

It's a crappy thing but it's the truth.

You need to go hard into learning a lot of the basics. Learn composition, color theory, and most importantly, learn anatomy. You'll get a lot better at your work and people will be more willing to give it a chance.

Totally agree.

In the modern day, where everything is abundant and accessible, there is much more to the success of a series, that extends further than the series itself as well. (I'm not an artist, so I can't comment on the art itself. However, I do study business, so I can help a bit there. )

1) Uniqueness and relatability, you mention this in your example of

Really, its the quality and defining trait of your work, which I am in no position to comment about, since I'm a beginner when it comes to comic creation.

2) Execution and timing, cause sometimes, waiting for the right time to release the right quality of work is crucial in the success of something. For example, A author will be have a higher chance of being successful if they create a spin off series of Sherlock Holmes, but seen through the eyes of the main villain as he pulls the strings behind the scene for altruistic goals, at the peak of the craze for "the misunderstood villain" type characters. (This can also be applied through "hyping"/leading the audience with a outstanding trailer or teaser of your work, such as all the posters for Avengers endgame.)

3) Interaction with the community. This helps spread your name, and if people take interest in what you're doing in the community, they'll be more likely to try out your work. However, this shouldn't be your main goal in helping out the community. This is a side effect, and honestly, faking this takes a lot of time and effort, which you'll easily get burned out on if you don't have a genuine desire to participate. The best way you can tell fakes from the real deal is the consistency of their character afterall.

4) Connections are everything, and to maintain connections, you need to be transparent. This probably the most basic principle of business and is kinda self-explanatory. Essentially, just be a good person and don't fake or oversell yourself. Try to give a good and objective evaluation of your strengths, weaknesses, and skills, and check your attitude. People are a lot more perceptive than you might think. Just look at all the dumpster fires on twitter, exposing people for who they really are, to get an example of the positive effects of connections, and the negative side effects of not maintaining them. But besides that, taking a risk and creating a link here or there won't hurt you at all, and the risk-reward ratio is definitely worth the risk.

Disclaimer: There are alot of different practices and innovative business models out there, which all get into the weeds with different philosophies, specifics, and data of "a successful business". However, what I stated above are basic principles that you will learn early on.
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Well, people already gave great points, so I won't extend, but... this is how the game is, now. Lots of high quality pro stories being released everyday, more than anyone can realistically read. Competiton is insane and brutal. If you want attention you'll have to step up your game. A lot.

Honestly thanks for the feedback, and I don't mind the brutality (I frankly just wanna know what's wrong)! I've been working on a redraw of chapter 1 of my comic and I've been vigilant of my contrast because of feedback (as well as just readability because it's pretty atrocious in that specific chapter, especially for mobile reading, and I want to make the presentation a lot better), I haven't considered going back to other episodes and adjusting the contrast too (even recent ones), because thought to myself "oh but the art improvement!", but if the webcomics are this brutal these days, I'll have to do something about it then.

Oh GOD, I've already done the homestuck thing :sob:, I've cracked my neck making whole animations on youtube (the 2nd one I just don't feel as proud of honestly, I kind of wanna reupload it and use music that isn't free source and something I've made idk).

Thank you for the recommendation! I'll be sure to especially keep a strong eye on my paneling and typography. It also makes me anxious if I should try to keep up this once-a-week upload schedule too since I feel it's gonna be hard for me to do that while I have work. Also as stated in my previous replies up there ^^^ yeah, I def have to work on some of my presentations! If I'm not working on my current page right now I could probably go through some episodes myself and adjust some of the contrast here and there since it's just a slider thing. I wish I could go back and redraw more of my lines but I feel I can't obsess over redrawing my pages instead of working on my current pages (I can't decide between the two honestly).

Can't help but restate, thanks for the honest feedback!

I don't have many words for this, but I'm gonna so bookmark this, maybe make this my laptop desktop or something. These are pretty good points!

There are things I didn't take mind of but I should work on, like taking part in communities more or making connections. I used to be really good at this back in the day, but I honestly don't know what happened. I've just been kind of vanishing and reappearing after a blue moon.

Certainly thanks for handing me some business advice!

Good job, you took the critique like a champ! :coffee_love:

Honestly I know what it's like to feel stuck. I've been there! You get to a pretty good standard of drawing and making comics, where all the basic beginner advice is too low-level to help you, all your friends and family tell you you're brilliant and totes super-pro and you're just there going "but there must be something the matter because people aren't looking at my stuff! Aaagh!"

Start out by fixing that contrast issue. It'll make a really big difference almost immediately.

Here's a post I made ages ago about speech bubble shapes, which might hopefully be of use?

So that'll be a couple of big easy wins to get you rolling. :hype_01:

I'm sure your animation skills will come in handy at some point. it's frustrating that that mixed style pioneered by Homestuck can't easily be done on platforms like Tapas and webtoon. I even tried to make a comic like that myself back in the day, and getting to the first [S] page was what killed the project. So much work! :sweat_02: Still, being able to animate is super-useful on trailers, ads etc. Plus, hey, being a massive unapologetic Homestuck has never done me any harm! (I voice Kanaya in Let's Read Homestuck on Youtube and did some track art on the official music albums, as well as the "Land of Fans and Music" ones. :supicious_stache:).

Tbh I think their drawing skill is pretty lacking. I don't mean to insult the OP, we've all been there. But there's a seriously poor understanding of basic anatomy, even down to facial symmetry. I honestly feel that's the biggest issue here. Most of the panels don't show a full body (or even 2/3rd body) at any point and usually that's to avoid trying to draw anatomy at all. But it's really off-putting to most readers.

They really really need to work on the basics before touching color theory or light sources.

Edit: Just look at the hand and face in the top three panels of the most recent episode. The fingers are weird mushed noodles and the face has this melting pizza shape.

I think in terms of actionable steps, yes, improving anatomy is a good idea... but also that if we can't even see what's happening due to the comic being so dark and murky, it won't make a difference, hence I'd advise fixing that first.

Getting better at anatomy and stuff is a long road. A couple of quick wins to improve the presentation won't do OP any harm, and might be a bit of a confidence boost.

When I look at things like this:

Yes, there's room for improvement, but the proportions and faces really aren't that bad when OP puts in the effort. On most of the pages, the main issue seems to be a lack of effort, time or attention spent compared to stuff like this. A bit of work learning to apply volumes to anatomical drawing would certainly help give these characters a bit more depth and stuff, but to me the issue is "this person can draw, but needs to actually apply those skills instead of hiding everything in the dark."

So my personal feeling is if we turn on the lights so OP can't hide their scruffy drawing in the dark... and if the better accessibility means more people are looking at the comic... it might help push them to draw to the top end of their abilities more and want to improve to impress that audience?

I do think the issue is that the anatomical issues are being hidden in the dark, yeah. I just feel they may be a wee bit overconfident in their art given their original post so I feel like adding that firm groundness of the work needed in the basics is really important. I think we often don't realize how bad our anatomy can be until we've gotten a good bit better, then we look back and cringe (or I certainly do, lol).

I'm not familiar with Drew Gooden, but I do watch a lot of Twitch -- it seems to be the overall opinion that Twitch is hard to grow on, requires a very specific skillset, and it is a very hard job/place to showcase one's work. Many popular people have tried it out and bounced right off!

IMO, it's a great comparison as both webcomics and Twitch streaming are oversaturated, but glamorized, and often take place on platforms where discoverability isn't super great. However, I'm also of the opinion that if your stuff's really good, it will eventually be hard for people not to find it. Eventually.

Other people have already weighed in with the art style of your comic, so I'll skip that part and say that it's cool you've been banging away at what can be a very unrewarding pursuit for 6 years. I know many, many people quit way before that. I guess the thing I'd say is that rather than try to fix an old project, sometimes it's good to move on to a new one -- with all that you've learned. Maybe a reboot, maybe something entirely new. Especially if you're staring down burnout and multiple redraws, it can be good to take a soul break.

Thanks for the video, btw! I'm going to give it a watch :slight_smile:

Honestly, when it comes to comic-making (and art in general) the best thing I learned to do is to compare. Not to stay in the vacuum of your own "I am drawing the best way I can!", but looking at the comics/artworks I consider the best at the moment and ask myself if I am any close to them. If I don't feel I am, I'm adjusting my current course ("I wanna draw better action poses/cooler lighting/better paneling") and proceed. Repeat after a week/month/half a year depending on your satisfaction with the result.

On my way to reply to every single one of these! (in the middle of stuff rn, so it'll take time)

goD yeah, and I'll also give your speech bubbles post a read!

That doesnt sound like that bad of an idea honestly, i'll save trailers for my back pocket hehe, especially since i make decent music now.

I've been unable to really reply to this since I'm not sure if I can say anything meaningful to this (but I have been reading). What do you consider good or bad anatomy? Because I'm still not exactly sure how I can really use this feedback to get better.

Generally, it's understanding the shape and structure of the human body and being able to portray it believably through art work. It doesn't particularly mean you have to know how draw realistically, though that does help, it just means being able to draw a believable figure in three dimensional space. If anatomy seems too daunting or too obscure of a concept, then I would recommend looking for tutorials (videos, graphics, etc.) that go over how to construct figures from 3D shapes and go from there.

Darthmongoose and everyone already gave such tips, but here's a tiny one that might make a big difference - if it's not stylistic choice, I recommend capitalizing "One(s)" in the title and URL. There's lots of little things that roll up into a big ball of unintentional first impressions that come before art and writing - and a title that feels unprofessional is the first one.

That's the thing too, there are cool comics out there that aren't the most advanced in the fundamentals, but they hit it off with things like polished marketing, contrast, color choice, solid pacing, and that surpasses what an artist might think is the best way to improve. A comic creator (and novel creators considering how much we've got on tapas now, too) needs to wear a couple dozen hats and invest on them as time and patience allows.

Many folks already mentioned art as a key variable for a solid first impression......

But i will suggest an alternative that can work if you are struggling with time:

Maybe you can save some money and hire an artist. I did that for one of my comics that required a more detailed art style i can't currently pull off......

Of course, before any commitment, make sure the person you choose has the skills, discipline and integrity for the job, and save some cash to pay upfront. Is hard to convince someone to go on percentages of future profits.

Most of the folks i've hired and worked with are people i know enough to trust.....Met some of them here in Tapas.....

Personally i don't choose the same artist for all projects, it depends a lot of the skills and art style i need for that project.

Another important thing to mention if you wanna hire an artist is that communication is key. Make sure to be clear on what you want. For comics i do a sketch that is clear and legible and send some notes for details i consider important.

Hope this helps!

You can't because it's bad critique. Not that Candiedcotton and the others are being malicious or anything. Their replies are pretty normal. But critique is a teaching tool and thus it requires actual teaching to be useful. Pointing out the flaw is easy, teaching how to fix it is difficult and time consuming. Most people don't have the time or the ability to teach and this always leaves the artist not knowing where to go next.

Proko's channel on YouTube is the usual go-to for free anatomy lessons. There are tonnes more if you look. Also, your local library... assuming you live somewhere near one... will have piles and piles of books to choose from.

The rest is just practicing your ass off.

i know it is hard to build an audiance, heck im in the same boat, i know im not the best artist around and there are people way better then me,and so on but i do keep trying my best,what i think holds alot back is how the landscape is for webcomics, alot of the more popular titles seem to be more of the romance genre, so for alot of other genres like scifi /fantasy its much harder to get attention